[Akoue]

Fred - what can we do my friend but cast ourselves upon the mercy of God. We all have our burdens, that is to be expected.

Fred, I must respectfully take issue with something you said, though: "I pray for relief and I offer my suffering up to God for the forgiveness of my sins..." I was troubled by this statement, I have to admit. My friend, do you really believe that your suffering will bring forgiveness from God for your sins? Jesus Christ was God's appointed servant of suffering...the road he travelled to Golgotha was the road to his ultimate suffering which would bring about the forgiveness of man's sins. Fred, do you believe that or do you not believe in the substitutionary death of Christ?

I'm not attacking you. But I think this is a worthy discussion. I am interested in knowing your thoughts in this matter.

Sincerely.

Hello again, jakester.

I don't want to put words in Fred's mouth, but since he is Catholic I thought it might be helpful to offer a little clarification. The Catholic Church includes the notion of substitutionary atonement in its doctrine of salvation, but substitutionary atonement isn't the whole of it. This view of atonement emerged in the form in which it is widely recognized today by many Catholics, Lutherans, and Calvinists in Anselm's Cur Deus Homo. While the Catholic Church certainly recognizes the pure sacrifice of the Lamb of God as an act of atonement for fallen humanity, it regards the substitutionary character of that sacrifice to be only part of what is involved in atonement. As you may know, Orthodox Christians reject the notion of substitutionary atonement. Catholics, on the other hand, accept it but caution against a too one-sided application of this notion in understanding salvation.

I won't bore everyone to tears with a theology lesson. I just wanted to mention this as you seemed genuniely surprised that Fred didn't take a certain way of looking at substitutionary atonement for granted. As for the question why we suffer, the Catholic Church does not regard God as an angry judge demanding justice in the form of a propitiatory sacrifice but regards suffering as therapeutic, as medicine that heals us of the disease which is sin. Each of us may, therefore, offer our suffering to God as our own small sacrifice, prayerfully asking for our own forgiveness or for the forgiveness of others.

[De Maria]

The great failure of the Bible is that it fails to answer the most important of our questions... "Why People Suffer". The good as well as the bad suffer terribly in life. EVERYONE SUFFERS.

The Bible does answer that question:
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

We must unite our sufferings to Christ if we want to be glorified with Him.

The Book of Job states there are two reasons for human suffering:

A. Suffering is a *test* and you will be rewarded later for passing the test.
B. Suffering is beyond comprehension.

Please provide the citation for B. Since A and B seem to contradict each other in your analysis.

Biblical Prophets say that suffering is a punishment for sinning. Then, why do good people suffer?

1 Peter 1:7
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Christianity does not answer the reality that everyone suffers in life, the good and the bad and all between. We humans have that in common. :)

Yes, it does.

The Bad suffer as a consequence of their sin:
Psalm 11:6
Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

The Good suffer that they may prove their love of God:
Zechariah 13:9
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The Between suffer that they may choose life and love or death and evil.
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

Wondergirl and samdarwen,
Points well made.
Yes my suffering does make me far more aware of the suffering of others.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Maggie 3]

God is always in control, he know exactly what we need for today and tomorrow. I believe
God is in control of every circumstance in our lives for our good. I know God allows Satan to tempt us and bring suffering upon us but I know God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose.
Rom 8:28, We live in a fallen world and sin and its consequences surround us .
God has given us adversity and suffering and that can be Gods greatest tool for advancing spirtitual growth. Your response can make all the difference .Remember that God has a purpose for our suffering, He has allowed us to suffer and it fits with His wonderful plan for our life.Gods thoughts are higher than ours, so we cannot expect to understand all that He is doing. He often takes the most painful experiences of adversity and uses them to prepare us for what lies ahead. It is very important that we learn how to respond properly to what happens in our life. As we begin to comprehend Gods purposes we can learn to react in ways that strengthens us rather than discourage us. When trouble strikes what we want is comfort and protection. We want to stand up to adversity with the strength of the Lord. God is with us , He will never fail us and we can always count upon Him. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. Prov 3:5

MAGGIE 3




l

[arcura]

Maggie 3,
Thanks much for your thots on that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[adam7gur]

Maybe we could separate suffering to the suffering of a believer and the suffering of a non believer.
Those who believe in Christ suffer in Christ as He did with hope , but a non believer suffers in flesh with no hope.
Why do we suffer?Because our Lord suffered!A servant cannot be greater than his master!
If the Lord carried His cross,so must we!

[arcura]

adam7gur,
Great answer, brother Adam.
I particularly liked ,"A servant cannot be greater than his master!"
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Maybe we could seperate suffering to the suffering of a believer and the suffering of a non believer.
Those who believe in Christ suffer in Christ as He did with hope , but a non believer suffers in flesh with no hope.
Why do we suffer?Because our Lord suffered!A servant cannot be greater than his master!
If the Lord carried His cross,so must we!

We should ALL constantly remembering that "the servant cannot be greater than his master".
And yet, more often than not, we try to correct our Master by saying what we think GOD's LAW should be like and how it should be modified to suit our personal interest...

[Wondergirl]

We should ALL constantly remembering that "the servant cannot be greater than his master".
And yet, more often than not, we try to correct our Master by saying what we think GOD's LAW should be like and how it should be modified to suit our personal interest...

Wasn't that the attitude that got us into trouble in the first place, in the Garden of Eden? Isn't that the umbrella attitude that causes us to commit any sin? We're like two year olds: "Me, me, me!"

[jakester]

Sorry to disagree with you.

A) Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant. According to our RCC HE was GOD's SON. In any case, neither you nor I can do anything else but to believe or not believe this assertion.

B) According to our RCC, again, our sufferings can be applied by GOD against our sins. Still, this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs.c) Jesus Christ death in the Cross was meant to redeem Mankind of its sins and help us therefore to reach our Salvation. Here there is something which we know historically, i.e. that someone by the name of Jesus died in the Cross.

As for the rest, it will depend on whether your faith allows you to believe HE was the Son of GOD, that is GOD himself, or not.

I would say debates can be basically made when the faith does not intervene. Whenever Faith comes in, it is just a matter or believing it or not.

To start with we cannot even start debating whether GOD exists or not. More than 9/10s of mankind believes in God, one way or other. The rest is atheists. However, they cannot prove GOD does not exist as much as we cannot prove the contrary.

Gromitt - I respect your right to disagree and actually appreciate that you do so tactfully. I suppose the only thing that troubles me which I care to really talk about is your constant defense of the uselessness of debating "for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs." Again, I respect your right to disagree but I don't think your ideas can be fully appreciated because you make assertions like "Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant" and then in the next breath you say with respect to God's application of suffering against our sin: "Still, this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs." I guess my question is, if you feel that it is useless debating over these matters, then why even bother offering a perspective since neither you nor I (nor anybody) "...has any idea of GOD's design."

I value discourse and thinking critically over these issues and I believe the bible expects us to do the same, at least that is my belief. I feel that to deny our rational minds the opportunity to pursue truth and discover the meaning of our existence is lethargic of us and partly cowardly. Where is the integrity in that? Certainly, gromitt, I'll concede that there will always be things that remain hidden from our understanding this side of reality. But the bible is there to be explored and understood because it is the truth revealed from God because God has chosen to reveal himself through it. Since this is the case, it behooves us to consider its message... to wrestle with the implications of it... and to have the integrity at times to say "I don't understand what it is saying" but at other times to argue for the reasons I believe I do understand what it is saying. To me, that is responsible and necessary, not the alternative—which is to merely close it up and throw up my arms, relegating myself to question why any of this exercise is important because after all, "...this is something quite useless to debate for neither you, nor I (nor anybody) has any idea of GOD's designs." I wholeheartedly disagree with this assertion.

Respectfully.

[arcura]

gromitt82 and Jakester,
'Try this.
I agree with both of you though that would seem odd.
I believe I understand where both of you are coming from with your opinions.
I do appreciate that you both are disagreeing tactfully.
That's the best way for a discussion to go on.
Neither of you has twisted what the other has said.
That is something I abhor and I applauded you both for not doing so.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[gromitt82]

Jakester, I also appreciate your comments.
Let me just say that whenever I remember to do it, I point out that I’m always prepared to accept that I may be wrong in my judgements.
Now then, when I say that "Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant" I’m just expressing my belief that Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity (this is a dogma for us Catholics) and as such GOD himself. Therefore, Jesus being GOD cannot be GOD’s servant.
This can be understood only if one accepts the idea of the Holy Trinity. I repeat for the RCC this is a canon we have to accept and, consequently, cannot be considered as a design of GOD but just as another definition of GOD.
As for what we could denominate GOD’s designs meaning GOD wants this or that or intended to do this, or that we have no other alternative, I think, but to accept the many interpretations of the Sacred Texts, which have been made by men like you and I.
And, if I’m not worng, the one and only message delivered directly by GOD to man are the 10 Commandments dictated to Moses in the Sinai and, of course, the Gospels (Jesus’ message to men).
I would never dream of denying “our rational minds the opportunity to pursue truth and discover the meaning of our existence”
I would even say that it is probably our duty to do this investigation work. Actually, this is what theologians job is supposed to be.
What I question, though, is when someone in this board or elsewhere actually affirm in an axiomatic way that GOD’s will is what he/she is saying in the same way as he/she could assert President Obama’s intentions are such and such, AFTER having actually spoken to him…
The Bible is, of course, the one tool we have at our disposal to be explored… and one tool that we believe to have been inspired by GOD… But, alas! To start with there are as many interpretations of the Bible as translations and some may greatly differ among each other…
You may find congregations that actually believe the Earth is only 10 or 15.000 years old and the Adam was actually the first Man in our Planet…, And they invoke the Bible to prove it!
I would say it is useless to start a debate over that point… as it is to debate as to how GOD created the Universe we know (and the eventual one that we do not know yet) or start discussing Darwin’s evolution theory. Basically, because science is bringing in new evidence of things we just ignored a few years ago…
Galileo Galilei had to deny under oath that what he knew for sure was just a product of his imagination… And when I was a school boy I was taught that without any doubt the atom was the smaller particle there was. It was in 1942!
Still, I shall always defend your right to think otherwise as I see that you, so kindly, also accept my right to express my point of view!
Cordially,

[arcura]

gromitt82,
Very well said.
Easy to understand.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[jakester]

Jakester, I also appreciate your comments.
Let me just say that whenever I remember to do it, I point out that I'm always prepared to accept that I may be wrong in my judgements.
Now then, when I say that "Jesus Christ is not GOD's appointed servant" I'm just expressing my belief that Jesus is the 2nd Person of the Holy Trinity (this is a dogma for us Catholics) and as such GOD himself. Therefore, Jesus being GOD cannot be GOD's servant.
This can be understood only if one accepts the idea of the Holy Trinity. I repeat for the RCC this is a canon we have to accept and, consequently, cannot be considered as a design of GOD but just as another definition of GOD.
As for what we could denominate GOD's designs meaning GOD wants this or that or intended to do this, or that we have no other alternative, I think, but to accept the many interpretations of the Sacred Texts, which have been made by men like you and I.
And, if I'm not worng, the one and only message delivered directly by GOD to man are the 10 Commandments dictated to Moses in the Sinai and, of course, the Gospels (Jesus' message to men).
I would never dream of denying “our rational minds the opportunity to pursue truth and discover the meaning of our existence”
I would even say that it is probably our duty to do this investigation work. Actually, this is what theologians job is supposed to be.
What I question, though, is when someone in this board or elsewhere actually affirm in an axiomatic way that GOD's will is what he/she is saying in the same way as he/she could assert President Obama's intentions are such and such, AFTER having actually spoken to him…
The Bible is, of course, the one tool we have at our disposal to be explored… and one tool that we believe to have been inspired by GOD… But, alas! To start with there are as many interpretations of the Bible as translations and some may greatly differ among each other…
You may find congregations that actually believe the Earth is only 10 or 15.000 years old and the Adam was actually the first Man in our Planet…, And they invoke the Bible to prove it!
I would say it is useless to start a debate over that point… as it is to debate as to how GOD created the Universe we know (and the eventual one that we do not know yet) or start discussing Darwin's evolution theory. Basically, because science is bringing in new evidence of things we just ignored a few years ago…
Galileo Galilei had to deny under oath that what he knew for sure was just a product of his imagination… And when I was a school boy I was taught that without any doubt the atom was the smaller particle there was. It was in 1942!
Still, I shall always defend your right to think otherwise as I see that you, so kindly, also accept my right to express my point of view!
Cordially,

Gromitt - OK, so I understand a little bit better where you are coming from. I do see the inherent challenge in definitively stating that one thing is true and another thing is false, because as you have pointed out, viewpoints are sometimes challenged and ultimately refuted by new evidence. However, my conclusion still would not be that it is useless to debate over things... your examples are proof that simply relegating ourselves to see debates as useless, is not beneficial. If scientists had applied the notion that debating whether the atom was the smallest particle was useless, they would have never discovered that there were smaller particles like quarks. Is determining the exact age of the earth (whether 7,000 or 10,000 years old) really all that beneficial? I don't know... and perhaps that is one of those things that we might have a hung jury on. But I think that our view of what can be known and what cannot be known may be a subjective bias and if we start applying the frame of mind that things I can and cannot know are universally true for everybody, I may be overstepping my bounds. That is where I personally took issue with your earlier post.

But, I appreciate your humility in saying that you are prepared to accept that you may be wrong in your judgments. I have been wrong more times about things in my life than I can even count. As it pertains to matters of faith, I have changed my mind about many things pertaining to God. I suppose that when it comes right down to it, the process of sanctification is proof (as I see it anyway) that my ideas and thoughts about reality are not the final word. It is as Paul said in Romans 12:

"I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

Sincerely.

[gromitt82]

Jakester,

As I’m no doubt much older than you are (83) I am also certain that I have been wrong many more times than you have ever been.

I could as well say that while I started my life more or less the right way (my family was very religious, and I went to a Piarist school – Escolapios). When I went to College my religious views started to peter out until shortly after I married, I concentrated in my job, as if it was the most important thing of my life. Succeeding in life and providing a good shelter and protection for my family was the paramount target and top priority which led me to forget there was a bigger priority which I was not attending to. This heavy mistake (speaking of being wrong) lasted until I retired.

However, GOD allowed me to correct this awful situation by allocating me some more time down here, which I am taking advantage of to sort of square my expense accounts with our Creator!

But trying to “make ends meet” as far St. Paul’s statement in Romans 12 “by the renewal of my mind, that by testing I may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect”, I end up every day by being mystified and befuddled by a number of questions I cannot find a completely satisfactory answer to.

Unquestionably, this is my own fault; it means that my faith is not strong enough and is full of questions marks!

This is why, sometimes, I feel that debating over certain religious subjects lead me nowhere except to more bewilderment…

The true saints, those martyrs that gladly offered their life, for they were certain they were going to enjoy forever the Kingdom, did not have any questions to place. They were totally confident their sacrifice will open for them the Gates of Heaven!

Their faith was imperishable and indestructible. Mine, obviously, is not. I surely concede still too much value to our worldly possessions… like my own life!

That is the problem with philosophy and science. Science primary tool is actual experimentation until it can prove for sure its theories. While philosophers are often disconnected from the reality science knows and, more recently, they even do not care if the are. It's not. Therefore, not surprising science would want to distance itself from philosophy. It becomes even more personal for the scientist when he's told that he must conform to preconceived views of the world. It started with Galileo having to renounce his scientific views on astronomy, but continued through the ages. On the other hand, Philosophy, often in the form of some religions, does not seek the truth. It seeks believers, and the truth may be an enemy as it happens in the Theocracies of some Islamic countries.

And, more often than not, I find myself riding one horse or the other, if you know what I mean…

Best regards

[arcura]

gromitt82,
That was a very interesting post.
With me also was many years where other thing of this world were more important yo me.
Peace and kindness.
Fred

[gromitt82]

What I was trying to emphasize is that while we proudly go about our life boasting of our Catholicism, deep inside our hearts, we are far from having a foolproof faith, or maybe we think it is, while it is not actually so.

Particularly in our part of the world, we are now able to see the results of our unspeakable materialism and greed. People who otherwise may claim they are good Christians have not hesitated to submerge millions of people into a state of despair. The “love thy neighbor" Commandment is gradually becoming, more than ever before, “every man for himself”.

On the other hand, we are constantly arguing, in the name of modernism, over principles of our religion which should not be even discussed.

Abortion, homosexuality, contraceptives, divorce, the family, sex, pornography… these are just a few realities we have to face every day, and more often than not we find ourselves utterly confused for while “our head thinks that perhaps they are right, our heart says they are not…”, as the song goes!

No, I think our faith is not strong enough. It is said that faith can move mountains, and it is true.

I have seen hundreds of people gathered in the Gats of Varanasi (the old Benares) waiting in line to get their daily bath in the waters of one of the most polluted rivers in the world, the Ganges. The concentration of coli forms bacteria per 100 milliliters is said to be 3000 times over safety limits. However, well over 70.000 bathers do take a bath every day.

It is true that a lot of people die of diarrhea sickness every month, but not as many as they should, according to some medical doctors. However, the faith of these bathers is so strong that, apparently, they become immunized.

The very same thing happens in Lourdes. The spring waters from the Grotto that fills in the small pools where people bath is never changed during the day. By the end of the evening, its color is rather dark, undoubtedly due to the hundreds that have bathed in them all day long. Therefore, the most natural thing in the world would be that the water be heavily contaminated by all kinds of microbes and bacteria from the sick people taking their bath in the hope of being cured.

And yet, no sicknesses have been ever reported to be spread because of these bathing. An estimated 200 million persons have visited the shrine since 1860, and the RCC so far has officially recognized only 67 miracle healings which are stringently examined for authenticity and authentic miracle healing with no physical or psychological basis other than the healing power of the water. These are, of course, the official healings accepted. Because unofficially they amount to several thousand every year…

Here, again, I am convinced that strong faith plays a paramount role in these healings whether they are considered as miracles…

Therefore, I believe that once one gets to that stage of faith is when one can really boast of being happily waiting for its transit to the Kingdom, don’t you think?

[arcura]

Claude,
Yes, I so think.
Fred

[gromitt82]

Claude,
Yes, I so think.
Fred

Thanks. And as the British like to say: "keep your upper lip stiff" or something like that...
All the best

[cozyk]

Ok, but I most likely won't be hanging around a website in those times.

What does that mean? How have you avoided any suffering during your life time. How old are you?