[asking]

So, Tom, what about my statement about gender identity becoming established at age five do you disagree with? When do you think it becomes established? Earlier? Later?

And what makes you think that?

And why are you being so coy about it?

Am I missing something you think is terribly obvious?

[Tj3]

I am saying that if you have a point to make about gender identity, make it.

I have no idea what you were attempting to imply by stating that I must not have children.

Well, let's just say my wife burst out laughing when I told her what you said about gender identity and questioned if you knew anything about children. I cannot imagine how anyone who was even around children could make such a statement.

[Tj3]

So, Tom, what about my statement about gender identity becoming established at age five do you disagree with? When do you think it becomes established? Earlier? Later?

It would be hard to identify just how young children are by the time that they know they are boys and girls because it is probably well before they begin to talk.

And what makes you think that?

The fact that I have never seen or heard of an exception to it. And I have been around a lot of children.

And why are you being so coy about it?

Why are you accusing me of being coy. I have been quite open about my views on this.

Am I missing something you think is terribly obvious?

Apparently.

[Tj3]

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants. It was not my opinion.

Why don't you tell who the author is and what the book is? Why are you being so coy?

[asking]

Tom, It wasn't at all obvious why you thought it was a laughable idea. Apparently, science disagrees with you once again. But we are all used to that by now.

My source was Eric Vilain, MD, PhD
It was not a book, but a scientific lecture I attended.

Here's his webpage at UCLA.
UCLA Department of Urology Faculty Information - Eric Vilain, MD, PhD

[Wondergirl]

Tom, It wasn't at all obvious why you thought it was a laughable idea. Apparently, science disagrees with you once again. But we are all used to that by now.

My source was Eric Villains, MD, PhD
It was not a book, but a scientific lecture I attended.

Here's his webpage at UCLA.
UCLA Department of Urology Faculty Information - Eric Vilain, MD, PhD

Thanks again, asking, for all your input. We needed it for clarity.

[asking]

Vilain said "about five" and I never had the impression that he intended that to be exact. But I found a paper listed on his website that states:

"Gender identity development begins before the age of 3 years, but the earliest
age at which it can be reliably assessed remains unclear."

Consensus Statement on Management of Intersex Disorders
Consensus Statement on Management of Intersex Disorders -- Lee et al. 118 (2): e488 -- Pediatrics

That it begins before age three does not mean it is completed by age three, plus there is probably a lot of variation depending on the individual. Plus, there is the matter of being able to assess what is in the child's mind. Vilain stated that it was difficult to assess a child's own self identification (as opposed to, say, the parents') before about age five.

It's very easy for adults to impose their gender assumptions on a child without that having anything to do with how the child feels. For example, I have seen people walk up to a male baby and coo about what a darling she is with her beautiful long lashes, etc. This is one reason so many people punctiliously label their babies with denim dungarees or pink bows, accordingly.

So, Tom, I still don't know what you and your wife are laughing about. Unless you raised a transgender child, you would never have had your assumptions challenged, since the majority of girl babies grow up to self identify as girls and the majority of boy babies grow up to self identify as boys. You may think your 1-year old is "all boy." But he probably has no idea what that means.

[asking]

Thanks again, asking, for all your input. We needed it for clarity.

You are welcome! And thank you!
It fun to find you all here arguing.

[Wondergirl]

You are welcome! And thank you!
It fun to find you all here arguing.

Did you notice how well-behaved we all were? The thread hasn't gotten shut down yet...

More tomorrow night??

[asking]

I'd like to know at what age a person feels attraction, however non sexual, for others. My first crush was in kindergarten.

Others want to contribute?

Gays in this thread give ages mostly from 4-11, with quite a lot of "7 or 8"s.
When did you realize you were gay? - Topix

[Tj3]

My source was Eric Vilain, MD, PhD
It was not a book, but a scientific lecture I attended.

I mistook it to be a book because you indicated earlier that it was.

The earlier information comes from a textbook of human development and from research by a pediatric surgeon who does sex assignment surgery to intersex infants.

It is also interesting to note that you reference a man named "Vilian" who is not even mentioned or acknowledged in the paper that you linked.

Let's go on to the details about the theory.

Vilain said "about five" and I never had the impression that he intended that to be exact. But I found a paper listed on his website that states:

"Gender identity development begins before the age of 3 years, but the earliest
age at which it can be reliably assessed remains unclear."

Read further:

"Gender identity development begins before the age of 3 years,68 but the earliest age at which it can be reliably assessed remains unclear. The generalization that the age of 18 months is the upper limit of imposed gender reassignment should be treated with caution and viewed conservatively."

Now there was another "expert" in this field who believed that infants did not have gender identity, and thus sex could be changed and ruined the life of a man in one very famous incident widely reported in the news at the time. You may wish to read an article about John / Joan. The boy had damaged caused to his penis during electro-surgery when he was 7 months old, so they did further surgery to change him into a girl and his parents raised him as a girl. Here is an excerpt from the article:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In a nutshell, the child never was and never became a normal girl. Now in his thirties, having married a woman with three children, John lives as a man. He, his mother and brother now recall that Joan regularly rejected girls' toys, clothes and activities. His mother says that, despite an attractive female appearance, Joan's movements and speech "gave him away and the awkwardness and incongruities became apparent." [18] Johns twin brother has said: "When I say there was nothing feminine about Joan, I mean there was nothing feminine. She talked about guy things, didn't give a crap about cleaning house, getting married, wearing makeup" (emphasis in original). At the age of six or seven, Joan told her brother she wanted to be a garbage man: "Easy job, good pay." [2] Despite the absence of a penis, Joan often stood to urinate. Other girls at school eventually barred her from their bathroom, threatening to kill her if she came in. Eventually she would use a back alley for urination. [25] Contrary to Money's earlier reports, Joan's behavior during childhood failed to be "so normally that of an active little girl."

Despite rearing as a girl, Joan dreamed of a future as a he-man type with a mustache and sports car. Although placed on estrogens at the age of 12, she often discarded the drugs, disliking how they made her feel. She was disturbed by her developing breasts. At one point she told her endocrinologist that she had suspected she was a boy since the second grade. She adamantly refused the surgery that would give her a vaginal opening and complained to her psychiatrist how she dreaded the trips to Johns Hopkins where people looked at her and showed her pictures of nude bodies. At the conclusion of her final visit in 1978, Joan told her mother she would kill herself if she had to go again. By 1980 Joan's relationship with her clinicians at Hopkins had reached impasse. "Do you want to be a girl or not?" her endocrinologist had demanded. "No!" replied Joan emphatically. At the age of 14, without knowing the history, she decided to cease living as a girl: Joan became John. [2, 25]

Following the transition, John's father, on the advice of a psychiatrist, revealed what had happened during infancy. Until that moment her parents and clinicians had tried to conceal all that was problematic about her gender, to give her the unambiguous rearing as a girl they were told to provide. Listening intently to his father tell the story of the botched circumcision and surgery, John experienced relief. A puzzling past began to make sense. At John's request, male hormones were subsequently administered, a mastectomy was performed, and surgeons eventually created a penis. John now takes satisfaction as a husband, father and breadwinner.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is more - John was not alone:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The outcome of the John/Joan case has been observed with comparable patients. In a recent and ongoing study Reiner tracked six boys who had lost their penises in infancy and were being reared as girls. These children behaved more like boys than girls and, in two cases, not knowing they were XY, the children autonomously changed gender and assumed male roles. [27] Reiner has stated: "it would be wrong to say that these two children wished to be boys or felt they were boys in girls bodies: they believed they were boys."(Quoted in Colapinto.) [2]

Another significant development has been the emergence of the Intersex Society of North America (ISNA) and related advocacy and support groups. The ISNA membership includes adults who were surgically "normalized" as children, generally without being told, and other intersexuals who have not had surgery. Having attempted unsuccessfully to dialogue with medical organizations in the U.S. some intersexuals have taken to picketing hospitals and conferences. [28] Unlike those with surgically corrected cleft palates, intersex patients are condemning physicians for their surgeries and for withholding the truth about their medical condition and treatment. The John/Joan case, the Reiner study, the activist protests and other cases reported in the literature, [29-31] strongly suggest that pediatric reassignment may often be failing the thank you test for clinical beneficence, [32] and that these poor outcomes may not be isolated droplets of misfortune in a downpour of excellent results.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You may wish to read the atrticle. This is the real world - not just someone's opinion.

Pediatric Ethics and the Surgical Assignment of Sex

So, Tom, I still don't know what you and your wife are laughing about.

I did not think that you would.

[cozyk]

I'd like to know at what age a person feels attraction, however non sexual, for others. My first crush was in kindergarten.

Others want to contribute?

Gays in this thread give ages mostly from 4-11, with quite a lot of "7 or 8"s.
When did you realize you were gay? - Topix

First grade, his name was Steve, I loved his cow lick at the front of his crew cut. I actually thought that meant a cow had come up to him, took a good lick, and it made his hair stay that way, permanently. I bet he does not have it today. If he is like his father, he should have "male pattern baldness." I went to school and church with him and had a crush on him up to grade 5, then I had to change schools.

[cozyk]

I think being born into the wrong body would be one of the saddest things that could happen to anyone. But, I truly do believe that it happens and I just pray for peace for these people. Peace and acceptance from society. It is bad enough that they have this battle going on within themselves, but then for society to shun them too, or not believe them is just unforgivable.

[excon]

It is bad enough that they have this battle going on within themselves, but then for society to shun them too, or not believe them is just unforgivable.

Hello again, cozyk:

It IS unforgivable, especially from people who think they're so forgiving...

Bwa, ha ha ha.

excon

[cozyk]

I did not think that you would.

[/QUOTE]


I have to admit. I don't know what you and your wife are laughing about either. I'd be willing to bet though that you have not had either homosexuality or gender ID problems in your family.

[Tj3]

I have to admit. I don't know what you and your wife are laughing about either.

It is good to admit that.

I'd be willing to bet though that you have not had either homosexuality or gender ID problems in your family.

No, they all accepted the way that God created them.

[excon]

No, they all accepted the way that God created them.

Hello again Tj:

That sounds exactly like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran when he said there were no homosexuals there...

And, he's nowhere near the Nile river.

excon

[Tj3]

Hello again Tj:
That sounds exactly like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in Iran when he said there were no homosexuals there....

Now slow down and read carefully. I do acknowledge that there are homosexuals. If there were not, we would not be having this discussion.

Lev 18:21-23
22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. 23 Nor shall you mate with any animal, to defile yourself with it. Nor shall any woman stand before an animal to mate with it. It is perversion.
NKJV

[bobbalina]

Now that's how we got AIDS...

[NeedKarma]

now thats how we got AIDS...

Origin of AIDS - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

snopes.com: The Origin of AIDS


Education is important.