[Tj3]

Tom, we beat this horse dead already. Akoue gave you the Greek understanding and definitions a day or so ago.

He gave me his opinion, which disagrees with the experts.

Person opinions, as interesting as they are are not as compelling. Perhaps you like to accept whatever he says as better than what scripture and the experts say, but I am not so easily swayed.

[Wondergirl]

He gave me his opinion, which disagrees with the experts.

His opinion??

[Wondergirl]

Roll with me here for a minute, Tom.

God created a perfect world and created perfect creatures for it. Right?

[Akoue]

Let's get back to reality. I posted the information from one of the foremost lexicons, and you have provided your opinion.

First of all, I've said many times that the word "arsenokoitai" gets used in different ways. It was also used for masturbation and for anything "unnatural"--which could mean any number of things, including going to a boy prostitute (malakos) for sex.

Second, the BAGD isn't the last word on anything. The very fact (which I feel I've pointed out before) that there is disagreement over the meaning of "arsenokoitai" would seem to suggest that it's not at all unambiguous. I made the same point on another thread recently: If Paul had wanted to be clear about condemning homosexuality in general, he could easily have done so. He chose to use this specific word, and in a clause in which he condemns young male *prostitutes*, in a letter addressed to Corinth, which was known not for homosexuality but for prostitution--male and female prostitution.

[Tj3]

Right, God made humans male and female. That doesn't speak to sexual orientation.

Really? How would you expects homosexuals to multiply? Why did God declare homosexuality a sin if He created it?

What sin. By your own account, the BAGD (not BGAD) says that "arsenokoitai" *can* mean males who PRACTICE homosexuality. That's different from have a homosexual orientation. So even if we go with your preferred source, merely being gay isn't a sin; it's the acts that would be sinful. So Wondergirl isn't accusing Paul of committing a sin.

BTW, it is BGAD - it is sitting right in front of me and that is the common abbreviation (unless of course your opinion is that everyone else is wrong on that also.

As for the practice of homosexuality, since an orientation towards sin is also a sin according to scripture, why is homosexuality so special that it gets a special exemption?

[Akoue]

Really? How would you expects homosexuals to multiply? Why did Gopd declare homosexuality a sin if He created it?

Well, surely you don't mean to suggest that every human being is to have offspring. Many can't. Don't think I said that God created homosexuality. I was just pointing out that what you said wasn't to the point.

BTW, it is BGAD - it is sitting right in front of me and that is the common abbreviation (unless of course your opinion is that everyone else is wrong on that also.

As for the practice of homosexuality, since an orientation towards sin is also a sin according to scripture, why is homosexuality so special that it gets a special exemption?

BGAD it is, then. Most of us who have been at the for a while refer to it as "BAGD" since that how it was known for years.

The orientation toward food isn't a sin, but many think gluttony is. The orientation toward sex isn't a sin, but lust is. As is adultery. Is there a specific passage where the Bible says that sexual orientation can be sinful. To be clear, is there a place where it speaks of orientation in such a way as to distinguish between orientation and act? If not, I'd have to say you're making unBiblical claims.

[classyT]

Yep - that God would allow him to have a thorn in the flesh to make him humble by giving him a desire to commit sin, and giving him a sinful orientation.

Since when does God tempt us with sin?

James 1:13
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
NKJV

I agree, it sickens me for anyone to suggest it. Whatever Paul's "thorn" was it wasn't a sin. The Lord Jesus told Paul that he would suffer for HIM. Paul lived for the Lord and he suffered for the Lord Jesus... he endured hardship all for the Glory of the LORD. The mere suggestion that he suffered scorn and humilation because he was a homosexual is so carnal minded. If Paul learned one thing, he learned it WASN'T about HIM.

[Wondergirl]

I agree, it sickens me for anyone to suggest it. Whatever Paul's "thorn" was it wasn't a sin. The the Lord Jesus told Paul that he would suffer for HIM. Paul lived for the Lord and he suffered for the Lord Jesus...he endured hardship all for the Glory of the LORD. The mere suggestion that he suffered scorn and humilation because he was a homosexual is so carnal minded. If Paul learned one thing, he learned it WASN'T about HIM.

So you believe being, simply being, a homosexual is a sin.

[Wondergirl]

Tj3, not allowed to do a rating on discussion board, but great job, but it is as always, those that want it bady will never listen to God's will. They did not for Noah, they did not for Lot, and they will not for us.

"Us"??

[Tj3]

Well, surely you don't mean to suggest that every human being is to have offspring. Many can't.

I thought that we were discussing homosexuality, not the propagation.

BGAD it is, then. Most of us who have been at the for a while refer to it as "BAGD" since that how it was known for years.

You are welcome to call it what you wish.

[quote]The orientation toward food isn't a sin, but many think gluttony is. The orientation toward sex isn't a sin, but lust is.[quote]

I asked once before but did not get an answer. Maybe you can define what you think an orientation is.

[Tj3]

Tj3, not allowed to do a rating on discussion board, but great job, but it is as always, those that want it bady will never listen to God's will. They did not for Noah, they did not for Lot, and they will not for us.

Thanks. I agree that there will always be those who will find a way to justify their views regardless of what scripture says.

[Wondergirl]

I asked once before but did not get an answer. Maybe you can define what you think an orientation is.

Will you accept Wikipedia's definition? -- Sexual orientation refers to "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes." (my underline)

[classyT]

So you believe being, simply being, a homosexual is a sin.

Having homosexual tendencies without acting on it? no. I don't think God made us to be homosexual though. He made us male and female and something is wrong when we are attracted to the same sex. He wouldn't have given Paul a sexual orientation that is contrary to His will for him. NO WAY.

[Wondergirl]

having homosexual tendencies without acting on it? no. I don't think God made us to be homosexual though. He made us male and female and something is wrong when we are attracted to the same sex. He wouldnt have given Paul a sexual orientation that is contrary to His will for him. NO WAY.

Ok then. Let's go back to my post that was ignored. Did God create a perfect world and perfect creatures to live in it?

[Tj3]

Will you accept Wikipedia's definition? -- Sexual orientation refers to "an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes." (my underline)

I am starting with looking at what an orientation (generic) is rather than getting into specifics at this point. I fear that trying to get into this to fast without establishing the basis first will only result in more confusion. Let's try to set a basis for understanding first.

What do you believe an "orientation" is?

[classyT]

Ok then. Let's go back to my post that was ignored. Did God create a perfect world and perfect creatures to live in it?

Yes he did... and then sin entered in...

[Wondergirl]

Tj3, not allowed to do a rating on discussion board, but great job, but it is as always, those that want it bady will never listen to God's will. They did not for Noah, they did not for Lot, and they will not for us.

This is a discussion board without ratings. You have no business coming on here (as a moderator!! ) and giving approval ("great job") to one of the parties.

[Wondergirl]

I am starting off with looking at what an orientation (generic) is rather than getting into specifics at this point. I fear that trying to get into this to fast without establishing the basis first will only result in more confusion. Let's try to set a basis for understanding first.

What do you believe an "orientation" is?

I will accept Wikipedia's definition of sexual orientation as posted.

[Tj3]

This is a discussion board without ratings. You have no business coming on here (as a moderator!!!) and giving approval ("great job") to one of the parties.

I understood him to be coming on here as a participant giving his opinion, just as you have been doing.

[Tj3]

I will accept Wikipedia's definition of sexual orientation as posted.

It is interesting how you refuse to answer my question each time that I ask it.