[sully123]

Why can't you put your Ph.D on hold for a year or so, and get an apt. close to her and the kids? If you want your marriage to work, as you say you do, than why opt to move out of state, and be so far away. Then you will never see the kids and her, and then probably I don't think you will ever have a chance to make your marriage work. Well you say you love her and the kids, if you do, then why would you even consider to move out of state? It doesn't make sense to me, unless I am missing something. It would help her along the way and you being so close to her and the children you would be able to see your children as much as you can. I don't understand, what there is to think about, other than moving up near her temporarily and see where that takes you.

[greatbignow]

Why can't you put your Ph.D on hold for a year or so, and get an apt. close to her and the kids? If you want your marriage to work, as you say you do, than why opt to move out of state, and be so far away. Then you will never see the kids and her, and then probably I don't think you will ever have a chance to make your marriage work. Well you say you love her and the kids, if you do, then why would you even consider to move out of state? It doesn't make sense to me, unless I am missing something. It would help her along the way and you being so close to her and the children you would be able to see your children as much as you can. I don't understand, what there is to think about, other than moving up near her temporarily and see where that takes you.

That sounds nice, but have you seen the job market and tried to find one lately? While my salary still qualifies my family of 5 for food stamps (by itself... with no one else working), it's the highest single salary we have/had coming in and I can't just move up to Fayetteville without at least being in a doctoral program with a competitive financial aid package. Since she left all the bills to me, I can't quit now unless I get a massive "bailout" haha.

I'm looking at the Ph.D. program in Texas because it actually pays out more than I bring home working full-time! Sad... just really sad but what I'm saying is that if I'm alone, I'm going to get my doctorate because I moved down here for my family (thought 30K a year salary would be adequate in Arkansas... boy was I wrong); no family, and I'm going to finish it because if we divorce then 40% of my take-home pay is for child support. I'd be STUCK at this job with no prospects for finishing my education, and I'd be earning practically minimum wage once you take out all my deductions... a master's degree and living on Ramen noodles and $900 a month? Surely you can see the misery of that situation.

[greatbignow]

Why can't you put your Ph.D on hold for a year or so, and get an apt. close to her and the kids? If you want your marriage to work, as you say you do, than why opt to move out of state, and be so far away. Then you will never see the kids and her, and then probably I don't think you will ever have a chance to make your marriage work. Well you say you love her and the kids, if you do, then why would you even consider to move out of state? It doesn't make sense to me, unless I am missing something. It would help her along the way and you being so close to her and the children you would be able to see your children as much as you can. I don't understand, what there is to think about, other than moving up near her temporarily and see where that takes you.

Also, just to clarify...

Ph.D. applicants typically apply about a year before they matriculate to the school and actually begin classes... as it is, I'm really pushing the deadline for fall 2009 as it is, and if I don't get into one for fall 2009 I'll have to retake the GRE (think: torture) because my scores will be five years old. So, I wouldn't begin until August 2009, which is quite a ways away. If I waited a full year, I wouldn't look at getting in until August of 2010...

[sully123]

I lived on Ramen noodles, for quite along time. I worked three jobs for quite a few years, with 75 a week child support and two kids. But I did it, just because I did it for my kids. I would drive from one job to another 45 minutes away.Because my kids came first to me. I could never leave their side, ever. That's what I don't understand, you would still opt to move away, and think of your career. Sorry but I think that is selfish. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but your thnking of yourself and what's good for you. I am very well aware of the job market, but I am sure if you chose someplace closer to the kids and her, your life would turn for the better. The farther you go away from her and your children they will drift away from you, and you will never have a chance of reconciliation with your wife and the kids. They will miss having a father around.

[greatbignow]

I lived on Ramen noodles, for quite along time. I worked three jobs for quite a few years, with 75 a week child support and two kids. But I did it, just because I did it for my kids. I would drive from one job to another 45 minutes away.Because my kids came first to me. I could never leave their side, ever. That's what I don't understand, you would still opt to move away, and think of your career. Sorry but I think that is selfish. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but your thnking of yourself and what's good for you. I am very well aware of the job market, but I am sure if you chose someplace closer to the kids and her, your life would turn for the better. The farther you go away from her and your children they will drift away from you, and you will never have a chance of reconciliation with your wife and the kids. They will miss having a father around.

I'm glad you can sympathize and have been in a similar situation, that does help. They already miss their Daddy dreadfully, and according to my wife, our son has expressed anger and resentment towards her for "stealing" his Daddy away. Our daughters have expressed that they miss me as well, but I didn't expect our son (who is autistic) to take any of this very well. I've no doubt that he's having a lot of trouble in school and possibly at home as well. The only thing I can see good about it is that their grandmother is there to help take care of them on a daily basis, and having an "extra" set of parents was also important to me when I was a child and my parents divorced... the security that my grandparents provided did help to alleviate some of the pain and confusion of the divorce; I was too young to remember and still in diapers, but my mother left my father and took us both with her while he was at work... she moved back to California and lived with her parents... all I remember is that I never grew up in a household with two loving parents until I met my foster parents at age 16. I went to a substance abuse treatment center (extremely intensive and long-term.. but it saved my life and is helping now), and lived with a family who also had a son in the program. I still write and visit them, and I consider them my family as well. My father and stepmother appeared to have more of a business-type agreement and they never seemed very happy together; she took care of the home and kids while he went to medical school... they divorced after 25 years of marriage, and she is now working a dead-end job without any of the former benefits of being the doctor's wife... money wasn't that important to her until she lost it all! Funny how that works...

Anyway, I digress...

I hear you about moving up there and trying to reconcile while being near my children. My wife has agreed to attend marriage counseling with me, which is definitely a step in the right direction. Three weeks ago she wouldn't entertain the idea, so I'm not sure what's happened but apparently she's calmed down and decided that maybe our marriage and family IS worth trying to save. She also admitted that she panicked and left in a much hastier manner than she should have. I'm hopeful that it can probably be worked out, but I'm not willing to give up my job unless a better one has been secured, which is questionable when our unemployment and underemployment rates are at historic highs. I don't want to move to College Station, but the program will pay more than I bring home now and if I'm divorced there's no point in staying here... I'll take any opportunity I can get in order to leave Arkansas... I really don't like it here, I'm not originally from here (California originally) and won't stay here if I'm divorced. It might be selfish, but I'm not going to be a martyr and "die for the cause" of being near my children. They can visit me in College Station just as much as they can being 4 hours away, and I'll have the added benefit of earning my Ph.D. so that I can teach on the university level and hopefully double my salary. What I'm not willing to do is throw away a secure job during an economic downturn; that is foolish to the nth degree! I told my wife she's welcome to come home and attend nursing school; once she's finished then we can move wherever (I had hoped she'd finish nursing school and then she can work while I finish my Ph.D.; it'd be a comfortable living... I'm tired of being a poor college student!) but a) we can't both attend school at the same time if we live together b) I'm not leaving my job unless I've found something better. If she ran away from here, what reassurances do I have that she won't do it again and leave me in dire straits WITHOUT an income or full-time job? But that's just it; her rhetoric and demeanor have changed dramatically and she even kissed me goodbye twice on Sunday while hugging me.

My interpretation? She loves me as much as I do her, but we have issues and we're both tired of arguing all the time. I'll go from being happy with her to frustrated in about 2 seconds. Certain things, like the fact that she doesn't pick up after herself, frustrate the hell out of me because I like keeping things clean and neat... she just doesn't care, and will let dishes pile up, laundry pile up, and throw clothing all over the room for weeks at a time... when I pick it up, she complains about it and demands that I leave everything of hers alone. I also pick up her shoes constantly, because she'll leave 4-6 pairs on the floor even though she has a shoe rack hanging on her closet door. It's things like these that we argue over, in addition to the lack of physical intimacy.

[asking]

Greatbignow;1527515My father and stepmother appeared to have more of a business-type agreement and they never seemed very happy together; she took care of the home and kids while he went to medical school... they divorced after 25 years of marriage, and she is now working a dead-end job without any of the former benefits of being the doctor's wife..

Too bad your mother didn't go to medical school herself. Then she wouldn't have had to choose. I have a friend who just left her MD husband. Fortunately, she's an MD too. And unlike him, she doesn't have trouble keeping a job.

Three weeks ago she wouldn't entertain the idea, so I'm not sure what's happened but apparently she's calmed down and decided that maybe our marriage and family IS worth trying to save.

I note your arrogant and sarcastic tone here, once again demonstrating your lack of respect and love.

I'm divorced there's no point in staying here... I'll take any opportunity I can get in order to leave Arkansas... I really don't like it here, I'm not originally from here (California originally) and won't stay here if I'm divorced. It might be selfish, but I'm not going to be a martyr and "die for the cause" of being near my children.

I think that pretty much says it all. You aren't listening to any of the advice given here. Your sense of entitlement is palpable.

I'll go from being happy with her to frustrated in about 2 seconds.

You have to stop doing that. No one should have to live with that. Not your wife, not your children, not anyone else you end up with.

... she just doesn't care, and will let dishes pile up, laundry pile up... I also pick up her shoes constantly, because she'll leave 4-6 pairs on the floor even though she has a shoe rack hanging on her closet door. It's things like these that we argue over, in addition to the lack of physical intimacy.

So was there a connection? You wouldn't make love to her because the house was messy? Also, I thought you said earlier that the dishes and laundry were something you did. Did you also not do these chores regularly?

P.S. I have a master's degree and I eat a lot of Ramen.
Also, I think the various boot camps you went through were terrible for you. You have internalized the idea that people can be "fixed" through coercion and emotional violence.

[greatbignow]

Wow, apparently we're looking at these statements through very different lenses. On the chores, I HAD BEEN doing those (almost like you don't believe me?). I was talking about the past on the dishes, but with the room, yes that was recent. I don't want to be stuck in a poverty state for the rest of my life, especially alone. How is that a sense of entitlement? To want things like a future and a salary I can actually live on isn't asking too much... I really think that's an unfair judgment on your part. Have you seen the poverty in rural Arkansas or lived around it? How about being STUCK in it and never having a chance of leaving? There are few opportunities here... Governor Huckabee once described Arkansas as being "...like a third-world country." The only place I've seen that compares would be the slums in Mexico... it's not that far off in the hardest-hit areas.

I'm getting ready to move out of our home and live in a CABIN at a CAMPGROUND... how in the hell is that a sense of entitlement? It sucks, is was it does. And I'm not going to condemn myself to that kind of existence for the indefinite future just so I can live 4 hours away from my wife and children. They can move down here as well.

[talaniman]

I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards.

[greatbignow]

I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards.

You know, earlier I took the observations into consideration and tried to use them appropriately. Now you're just being insulting and essentially demanding I live in poverty and like it. My wife and I are trying to work out our issues, but some posters on the board are apparently not listening either. I might be done here, because the feedback is starting to sound downright condescending and rude. You bet I'm a lously listener? Gee, thanks, how is that supposed to be helpful?

I treat my family like objects that I try to mold to my own standards? You've gone too far with that one. It's incorrect, insulting, and sounds fairly hateful.

[greatbignow]

I lived on Ramen noodles, for quite along time. I worked three jobs for quite a few years, with 75 a week child support and two kids. But I did it, just because I did it for my kids. I would drive from one job to another 45 minutes away.Because my kids came first to me. I could never leave their side, ever. That's what I don't understand, you would still opt to move away, and think of your career. Sorry but I think that is selfish. I don't want to sound mean or anything, but your thnking of yourself and what's good for you. I am very well aware of the job market, but I am sure if you chose someplace closer to the kids and her, your life would turn for the better. The farther you go away from her and your children they will drift away from you, and you will never have a chance of reconciliation with your wife and the kids. They will miss having a father around.

She's the one who left. Why should I move and leave my job? It might not pay much, but it's all I have and quite a few people are unemployed or working in fast-food right now. I'm not going to take that risk... she could move back if she wanted to.

[greatbignow]

I'll bet, just from what you've written on this post, you a lousy listener, ( if you listened) and treated your wife and family like objects, that you tried to mold to your own standards.

"Never make a person a priority in your life, while allowing them to make you an option in theirs."

THIS is what I'm doing by looking into moving and completing my education. I'm not going to be an option and move around to follow her and the children when it will mean further financial disaster for me. That sounds pitiful and codependent to me... if the divorce happens, I'm "moving on" and taking care of myself first... why chase someone around the state and country? If she wants to come home, she will, but I'm not going to chase them around and lose my job over it.

[sully123]

She's the one who left. Why should I move and leave my job? It might not pay much, but it's all I have and quite a few people are unemployed or working in fast-food right now. I'm not going to take that risk...she could move back if she wanted to.

Why should you move and leave your job? Because of your children! I don't get it. Your children need you, but your not listening to what your wife says, they miss you. Does that mean anything to you? Evidently it doesn't, because you wouldn't choose your career over them. Their acting out, they want their father,and you want what's good for you, and not what's best for them. I have a great nephew who is severely autistic, who is 8 years old, and his father travels 1 1/2hours away to his job, and travels everyday to Washington DC, and they live in Pennsylvania, just so his son goes to one of the best schools for autisim. He travels everyday that far too work, because its for his son. I am sorry, you say how much you love your children, but you have a poor way of showing it. It seems all this time, its all about you and what you want.

[talaniman]

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth?

You have been using the same argument for twenty pages, but have not budged unless its going to be your way.

Let us know how that works for you.

Personally, a healthy marriage should be a good place for both to grow, and share, and care.

Sorry, just don't see it here.

[sully123]

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth??

You have been using the same argument for twenty pages, but have not budged unless its going to be your way.

Let us know how that works for you.

Personally, a healthy marriage should be a good place for both to grow, and share, and care.

Sorry, just don't see it here.

I agree Tal with you. He doesn't have it in him to do that.

[asking]

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth??

I've been thinking the same thing.

[sylvan_1998]

basically, greatbigbow you are a right fighter. You think you are right and are not going to cave until everyone is on page with you. You are making plans to where if they do not agree with you, what you will do.

Are you wrong, no. Is your wife, probably not. Do you see eye to eye? No and that is why you are separated.

With that said, it is only for you to decide what will happen from here on out. Your decisions seem to be economic in nature, and future directed. Okay, if that works for you, those are important things.

What everyone is trying to say, you have the economics down... but what about the effect of being without your influence in your children's lives. Okay so you show them fiscal responsibility but they live with the absence of your daily influence. Is that the price you want to pay? You talk about how bad your wife's families decision making processess are but you are willing to leave your children with them so that their influence everpresent in their lives.

See where I am going. And what has all the responders so upset is they agree with the values you place on what you describe on her family but you do not feel your children are worth stepping up to the plate for.

And the common theme of most of your repsonses is how can I fix my wife. How can I fix this marriage and fix her to see things my way. Look at what I am offering them and why can she not take it... how stupid can she be.

What you need to be doing is listening to what she wants. Maybe it is the same as you... but maybe not. Stop throwing what she is giving up by not being with you in her face. Stop telling her how miserable your econoic situation is with out her.

Do I think you are a bad guy, NO. Do I think she is making mistakes, YES. But you two need a mediator to get each other to listen to what each has to say and sit on each of your to hear what the other is saying. You need someone to help you with perspective in what you are proposing to do and you need to listen, really listen to that perspective.

[greatbignow]

Why should you move and leave your job? Because of your children! I don't get it. Your children need you, but your not listening to what your wife says, they miss you. Does that mean anything to you? Evidently it doesn't, because you wouldn't choose your career over them. Their acting out, they want their father,and you want what's good for you, and not what's best for them. I have a great nephew who is severly autistic, who is 8 years old, and his father travels 1 1/2hours away to his job, and travels everyday to Washington DC, and they live in Pennsylvania, just so his son goes to one of the best schools for autisim. He travels everyday that far too work, because its for his son. I am sorry, you say how much you love your children, but you have a poor way of showing it. It seems all this time, its all about you and what you want.

I'm really not trying to be defensive or have a poor attitude, but I don't think you truly understand how miserable and poverty-stricken this area of the country is. Would you quit your job and work for minimum wage? That's likely what I'd be doing. I won't do it. My children also need their father to earn a wage that can support them... don't forget about that one. Being together and on welfare vs. being apart and having at least some reasonable standard of living? Appreciate your taking time to respond, as well as the other posters as well, but I don't think you understand.

[asking]

It sounds like you've made up your mind.

[Synnen]

You know...

What your wife may be looking for here is that you put her and the kids before yourself and your education and your career.

Just once.

[greatbignow]

That attitude will keep you from your family. So get ready to move on, and be a doctor, or whatever your going to be. Why not set your family free, and stop all this back and forth??

You have been using the same argument for twenty pages, but have not budged unless its going to be your way.

Let us know how that works for you.

Personally, a healthy marriage should be a good place for both to grow, and share, and care.

Sorry, just don't see it here.

I'm not the one who destroyed our family and finances without so much as sitting down and talking to their spouse about it. I'm not the one who ruined Christmas for their children by leaving their father 3 days before Christmas and couldn't wait at least a week or two (her primary complaints? I'm not having sex with her often enough, I'm boring, and I complain too much); I'm not the one who put my daughter's orthodontics treatment (braces) in jeapordy because I QUIT my job that had orthodontics insurance! What she did was foolish, impulsive, and selfish! She has made life much harder on ALL OF US because she wouldn't or couldn't go to work every day and support our family even when I took care of most domestic duties! I stayed right where I am, and did the responsible thing like GO TO WORK every day and try to take care of business. Even if I was miserable or had an emotional breakdown or mid-life crisis, I wouldn't all the sudden screw everyone's life up because I can't "hack" it. What if I did this to my wife and left her in financial straits? What would the board be saying about me then? Instead, I'm the bad guy because I have the tenacity and temerity to stick with things, even when they become difficult? I would NEVER drop my job or leave my family like she did; being a father also means getting up and going to work everyday to pay the bills, no matter how you feel emotionally.

One thing probably is correct though, the boot camp did change me for the worse in some respects. I don't think I could possibly explain enough to do justice to the kinds of degrading and inhumane things that transpire within Arkansas correctional facilities. It killed most of what was fun and light-hearted within me. In some ways it made me more responsible and focused, regardless of what is going on around me but I still feel like some part of me died in there.

Regardless, I received a phone call from my wife this morning. Guess what? Her mother and step-father made it clear that she and the children are just too much for them; they're moving again as well! While I love my wife and children and of course want them home and will welcome them back, I want to use this as an example of how unstable and unrealistic these people are. My children would be moving around every 3-6 months OR LESS and changing schools just as often. Why in the world should I leave my steady job that will allow my wife to go to college PRACTICALLY FOR FREE and essentially cater to people who simply are not reliable? I'm not going to put my pearls before swine, as it were. I'm certainly not wealthy, but I'm not poor either (statistically anyway), and I'm not going to risk ruining everyone's lives financially just to suit someone's wishes. Guess what? Life is hard, and one would be wise to hold on to whatever good things they have. That said, we are going to go to counseling, but I want the board to understand that this isn't all my fault and I don't appreciate any accusations alluding to that argument.Could I be a better listener? Probably; heck, there's always room for improvement, but the WAY it was stated was rude and the poster knows it. It wasn't intended to be helpful, but rather degrading.