[TexasParent]

5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong | Christianity Today | A Magazine of Evangelical Conviction

The last reason is worth posting here:

5. Torture erodes the character of the nation that tortures.

A nation is a collective moral entity with a character, an identity that carries across time. Causes come and go, threats come and go, but the enduring question for any social entity is who we are as a people. This is true of a family, a church, a school, a civic club, or a town. It is certainly true of a nation.

Sen. John McCain, who has led the Republican charge against torture, recently said, "This isn't about who they are. This is about who we are. These are the values that distinguish us from our enemies."

In a November Newsweek article, he put it this way: "What I … mourn is what we lose when … we allow, confuse, or encourage our soldiers to forget that best sense of ourselves, that which is our greatest strength—that we are different and better than our enemies, that we fight for an idea, not a tribe, not a land, not a king … but for an idea that all men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with inalienable rights."

No Exceptions

Long ago, German philosopher Immanuel Kant wrote about the perennial human tendency to find exceptions to moral rules when the rules bind a bit too tightly on us: "Hence there arises a natural … disposition to argue against these strict laws of duty and to question their validity, or at least their purity and strictness, and, if possible, to make them more accordant with our wishes and inclinations, that is to say, to corrupt them at their very source, and to entirely destroy their worth."

The follow up to this is pertaining directly to the rule of law. It erodes us as a nation if we don't apply the laws and ideals we value and keep us free if they only apply in some cases.

[tomder55]

The funny thing is that I usually hear relativist arguments from the left . Anyway it always comes back to the question ;what is torture ?
As an example ;Read this description of how Hamas is treating Palestinians they think collaborated with Israel.
'Hamas torturing Fatah members in Gaza' | Middle East | Jerusalem Post

Or how doctors described how the bodies of the dead Jews in Mumbai were mutilated.
Doctors shocked at hostages's torture

That's torture.

Stating flatly that torture doesn't work is a narrow version of the truth. Torture may not work, but the fear of it does.

Chris Mackey and Greg Miller, authors of The Interrogators: Inside the Secret War Against al-Qaeda wrote that “Fear is often an interrogator's best ally, but it doesn't have a long shelf life,”
Example: they received cooperation from prisoners in Afghanistan after deliberately spreading a rumor that they were going to be sent back to their home countries in the Middle East in return for a $100,000 payment per man. But as the weeks pass, and nothing bad happens to him, the prisoner's fear fades and he becomes less useful. To say it is a slippery slope is a valid agrument for debate ;but to say that we cannot step even one foot along that path is impractical, for that would deprive us of vital intelligence. The debate then is really about how far we do go?

Waterboarding as an example is not drowning . But it puts the fear of drowning into the person being interrogated . Once the idiots in the press revealed that it had been used (a total of 3 times... which produced intel that was very usedful in disrupting AQ operations) ,it was no longer a useful tool because the jihadists knew it was a bluff.

[excon]

Once the idiots in the press revealed that it had been used (a total of 3 times ...which produced intel that was very usedful in disrupting AQ operations) ,it was no longer a useful tool because the jihadists knew it was a bluff.

Hello again, tom:

Once they knew they weren't going to drown, they were lining up for waterboarding, huh? You really have no clue, do you?

excon

[tomder55]

Yes they knew it was a bluff .I am sourcing Chris Mackey and Greg Miller,two professional interrogators. I guess they have no clue either .

Before Bush, prisoners were simply disposed of by inhumane methods and without gaining any intelligence. Much better! Now the Clintonoids are back in the positions related to foreign policy . My guess is that all this will fade away and not much will change.

[excon]

Hello again, tom:

It makes NO sense on its face... Look. I like my fingernails.. I know if they pull them out, I'm not going to die. But, that doesn't mean I'm OK with it...

Waterboarding is WORSE than that... It doesn't matter that they KNOW they're not going to die... They don't do it to FOOL you into thinking you're dying. They do it to HURT you! And, it HURTS - BADLY!! It's torture!!

Your two experts are dunces!!

excon

[tomder55]

[tomder55]

2 more graduates of GITMO are back in the jihad business.

AFP: Two ex-Guantanamo inmates appear in Al-Qaeda video

[artlady]

Some people can't even begin to understand the depth of corruption that has occurred over the last 8 yrs.

Has anyone here watched the loose change documentaries?

I suggest it. I'm not a conspirator but I am an old hippie don't trust the Gov.

I'm on an FBI list for being a peaceful activist... c'mon that's insane.Because of sit ins I did in 1967 through 72. Gimme a break!

Watch the loose change documentaries, do it! Keep an open mind when you watch and know that there are many people who believe this to be true,Edward Asner Charlie Sheen ,many others are are asking for a another look see at this bullcrap

By the way you may want to start with the first loose change videos as they do progress and you need to understand the previous videos.

It is all on Google ,please do it with an open mind. It is a must see but start with the first and work your way down.

I don't care how you do it but if you want to understand 911 and this corrupt government that inspired it start with loose change one.

[excon]

2 more graduates of GITMO are back in the jihad business.

Hello again, tom:

I'm not sure I understand you (and that's not surprising).

You believe that combatants should be held for the duration of hostilities... That sounds real cool, until one understands that you have no intention of EVER ending hostilities.

So, the TRUTH out of the other side of your mouth would be that you intend to hold them FOREVER.

If you could give me a date, or a description of what the world would have to look like in order for us to END the war, then I would entertain you...

But, as long as you keep up this pretense about us being fair because we adhere to international agreements about POW's or combatants, I'm going to continue to speak the truth to you.

The TRUTH is, that you/Bush have NO intention of EVER ending this war, and your intention is to KEEP them locked up forever... If you would simply SPEAK that truth, instead of hiding, we could expand this dialog.

excon

[artlady]

[QUOTE=tomder55;1504864]Yes they knew it was a bluff .I am sourcing Chris Mackey and Greg Miller,two professional interrogators. I guess they have no clue either .

Before Bush, prisoners were simply disposed of by inhumane methods and without gaining any intelligence. Much better! Now the Clintonoids are back in the positions related to foreign policy . My guess is that all this will fade away and not much will change.[/QUOTE

Could you site instances when this happened?

Where did you get this information from?

Seriously,I'm intrigued.I love to know about underground things.

If you tell me where you got the info and I can see it we can have a talk.

I like talking and I'm open but you need to show me to prove your point!

[artlady]

The strange thing is lots of folks want to let them go. They just don't want them in their part of the world.

Dig that and the man that was .released this is real.. I quote


*The emergence of a former Guantánamo Bay detainee as the deputy leader of Al Qaeda's Yemeni branch has underscored the potential complications in carrying out the executive order that President Barack Obama signed that the detention center be shut down within a year.

The militant, Said Ali al-Shihri, is suspected of involvement in a deadly bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Yemen's capital, Sana, in September. He was released to Saudi Arabia in 2007 and passed through a Saudi rehabilitation program for former jihadists before resurfacing with Al Qaeda in Yemen.

His status was announced in an Internet statement by the militant group and was confirmed by a U.S. counterterrorism official. "They're one and the same guy," said the official, who insisted on anonymity because he was discussing an intelligence analysis. "He returned to Saudi Arabia in 2007, but his movements to Yemen remain unclear." End quote


It has to be done with intelligence. Can our Gov. do so ?

If Reagan didn't put all of the intelligence into star wars and kept it on the ground ,we would have operatives in the field who knew what was happening.There were people there for 15 yrs.who were infiltrating but he took them off to do a starwars thing. Yes you can see a man from space.. so what??

He put us in horrible jeopardy. Yes ,you can see a guy tie his shoe from space but you can't catch him because there are no inside people.

[excon]

Before Bush, prisoners were simply disposed of by inhumane methods and without gaining any intelligence.

Hello again, tom:

I had to read it again to make sure I understood you...

Really?? Before the dufus we were murderers, but NOW, all we are is torturers, And that's a GOOD thing.. In other words, Bush cleaned things up..

So, NOW that we're NOT simply disposing of them, and ALL we're doing is torturing them a little bit, they should be happy... And, I should too.

I understand now...

excon

[artlady]

Hello again, tom:

I had to read it again to make sure I understood you...

Really??? Before the dufus we were murderers, but NOW, all we are is torturers, And that's a GOOD thing.. In other words, Bush cleaned things up..

So, NOW that we're NOT simply disposing of them, and ALL we're doing is torturing them a little bit, they should be happy.... And, I should too.

I understand now...

excon

Understanding is half the battle. Some minds will never be changed but the good thing here is that there is a lot of dialogue and maybe we can all learn .
You bring up important issues and I always enjoy the give and take. Thanks!

[tomder55]

So, the TRUTH out of the other side of your mouth would be that you intend to hold them FOREVER.

Not true . As you are well aware I favor the tribunal system.

[tomder55]

Before Bush, prisoners were simply disposed of by inhumane methods and without gaining any intelligence. Much better! Now the Clintonoids are back in the positions related to foreign policy . My guess is that all this will fade away and not much will change.

Could you site instances when this happened?

Where did you get this information from?

Seriously,I'm intrigued.I love to know about underground things.

If you tell me where you got the info and I can see it we can have a talk.

I like talking and I'm open but you need to show me to prove your point!

Artlady

Sure see #14 on this posting . I cited the CIA counter terrorism agent under Clinton who was head of the organisation's Bin Laden Unit in the 1990's,and who helped design the rendition program.

Many of the captured AQ were held in Egyptian or Jordanian prisons where human rights are sort of lets say; overlooked by those who are concerned about it. Oh ,these human rights groups detail some of the abuses in annual reports all right ,but otherwise don't get their undies in a knot over it.

The agent Mike Scheurer does not have kind words for Obama's executive orders regarding these jihadist terrorist .

Michael Scheuer, a former CIA analyst who helped set up the rendition programme and headed the unit hunting for Osama bin Laden, accused Obama of putting Americans are at risk.
"It's just more evidence that the Clinton children are back in control. They just have no idea of what kind of world they are facing," Scheuer said. "No matter what they think of Guantánamo or the black sites America is infinitely safer because of it."
He argued that CIA officers would be demoralised by the decisions, and that some were fearful they could be prosecuted for acts that the Bush administration had declared to be lawful.
"I am very sure they feel there is going to be a witch hunt coming," he said. "The bigger issue is that the message this sends to the people - whether FBI or CIA or NSA (national security agency) or military - is that the leadership of this country has no idea of what they are fighting."

Guantánamo closure marks pivotal turn in US fight against terrorism | World news | guardian.co.uk