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junkyarddog · Jan 18, 2009, 05:07 PM

I came home last night to discover that someone had been in my apt. I called my landlord and spoke to him this morning. He said that it was a former tenant and thet he was going to get the key from him. I told him that I wanted my lock changed and he said he would "get to it" on Tuesday. The problem is... today is Sunday.so I have to be concerned for 2 days of whether this person may or may not come in to my apartment. My landlord has NOT got the key back from this person yet and cannot guarantee that he will or that this person has not had another key made. I am more than concerned but do not know if I have any recourse.

Jake2008 · Jan 18, 2009, 05:45 PM

I would have the locks changed-immediately. Your landlord knows that a former tenant used that key to gain access to the apartment without permission?

Unbelieveable!

I would call the police as well and tell them exactly what you have said here. As them for their advice, and I bet that they will tell you the same thing.

It may be a good idea to file a police report, this is unlawful entry no matter if that person had a key or not.

ScottGem · Jan 18, 2009, 06:21 PM

You can't change the locks without getting the landlord's permission. What you could do is contact and tell him that you are uncomfortable and you would be willing to split the cost of changing the locks if he allows you to do it immediately. Make sure you tell him you will give him a copy of the new keys.

Fr_Chuck · Jan 18, 2009, 06:38 PM

I may disagree with Scott,

1. first I would never move in until they had changed locks to start with.

2. if they would not have came over the same day, I would have changed them myself, and gave the a key.
Rule or no rule I would not have the apartment unsecured to someone that has a key and would come in.

ScottGem · Jan 19, 2009, 06:38 AM

Comments on this post
Jake2008 disagrees: I disagree, any reasonable person would change the locks to protect themselves.

This is not about what a reasonable person would do. This is the Real Estate LAW forum. Therefore our answers have to abide by the law. A tenant can not make physical changes to a unit without the landlord's permission. That could result in a breach of the lease and termination of the lease.

You advised the tenant to take an arbitrary action that is probably in counteraction to the terms of the lease. That puts the tenant in danger of having his lease terminated. Therefore your advice is incorrect (and your retaliating against my rating with your own negative rating, inappropriate).

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I may disagree with Scott,

1. first I would never move in untill they had changed locks to start with.

2. if they would not have came over the same day, I would have went ahead and changed them myself, and gave the a key.
Rule or no rule I would not have the apartment unsecured to someone that has a key and would come in.

1. How would a tenant know whether the locks were changed? The day you move in, the landlord hands you a set of keys. A tenant generally will not know whether the locks have been changed or not.

2. I would not recommending acting so precipitously. Lets look at this scenario;
LL: I'll send someone on Tuesday to change the locks
Ten: But that means my apt is vulnerable. Can I call a locksmith now and have the locks changed? I will give you a key as soon as I can.

The LL would probably agree to this. If he doesn't, then the tenant has grounds to take their own action that may hold up in court. But I cannot, in good conscience, advise a tenant to act without at least attempting to get the landlord's permission.

stevetcg · Jan 19, 2009, 07:09 AM

Jake2008 disagrees: I disagree, any reasonable person would change the locks to protect themselves.

This isn't a forum for reasonable people. This is a forum for legal advice. Advising someone to violate their lease is not legal advice and not what a "reasonable person" should do.

Jake2008 · Jan 19, 2009, 07:29 AM

The tenant surely has a right to protect herself from unlawful entry. By not immediately changing the locks under THESE circumstances, she leaves herself wide open, unprotected, and at the mercy of a stranger to enter her apartment again.

What if that person was a psychopath. What if he robs her blind. By not changing the locks and waiting for the landlord to get around to it, and something did happen, what do you think the police would say?

You may be correct in the rule of law, I presume you are a lawyer Steve, I am not- obviously.

What else, just out of curiosity can a person in such a position do. I had recommended that she call the police for advice, thinking that if she had to wait for the landlord, they may be better able to advise her in how she can proceed in the meantime. Also to note, the landlord was in agreement to change the locks anyway, he likely would have agreed to her doing this sooner rather than later.

And, my apologies for stating an opinion. I didn't realize that answers here came from legal experts i.e. lawyers. I honestly didn't notice that it was 'real estate law'. I'm new here, maybe cut me some slack? :confused:

JudyKayTee · Jan 19, 2009, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by stevetcg

This isnt a forum for reasonable people. This is a forum for legal advice. Advising someone to violate their lease is not legal advice and not what a "reasonable person" should do.

In MY leases (and only speaking for myself) changing the locks is grounds for eviction. I need keys in case of an emergency and I found early in the game that tenants who replaced locks, had locks replaced, were either negligent about giving me keys OR ended up butchering the door, the locks, throwing away the old locks.

I found tenants broke up with boyfriends/girlfriends who had keys, changed their own locks; "felt threatened", changed the locks; any variety of things.

Do I change the locks when I have a new tenant? Of course.

Were both the landlord and the tenant in this case somewhat negligent? Of course.

But that doesn't change what the landlord/tenant can and cannot do - legally.

JudyKayTee · Jan 19, 2009, 07:45 AM

Originally Posted by Jake2008

You may be correct in the rule of law, I presume you are a lawyer Steve, I am not- obviously.

Here's the problem - on the legal boards we take great pride in the accuracy of our answers. Some people are, in fact, legally trained; some have experience in the field; some do fantastic research.

If it's an opinion, that's stated. "I think," "In my opinion," "In my experience." If it's the result of legal experience/education/'research, that's posted. There is also a difference between what is moral and what is legal - and, for that matter, between what makes sense, what is legal.

Those lines should never be crossed and an illegal act should never be recommended.

It's really unfair to ask to be given some slack when you are handing out reddies - and not giving anyone else any slack.

Jake2008 · Jan 19, 2009, 07:55 AM

Ok, I understand reddies now, and I apologize. Steve- you have my permission to hit me with a wet noodle. I too received one, and honestly thought I was just stating an opinion, not realizing as I said, I was on a 'legal' board, so I thought you were being unfair as well.

I have no legal knowledge, although I've been in the legal field with various things, but not real estate law, and especially not real estate law pertaining to rental apartments.

I was fearful that the poster in question was in danger.

stevetcg · Jan 19, 2009, 08:04 AM

Originally Posted by Jake2008

Ok, I understand reddies now, and I apologize. Steve- you have my permission to hit me with a wet noodle. I too received one, and honestly thought I was just stating an opinion, not realizing as I said, I was on a 'legal' board, so I thought you were being unfair as well.

I have no legal knowledge, although I've been in the legal field with various things, but not real estate law, and especially not real estate law pertaining to rental apartments.

I was fearful that the poster in question was in danger.

No wet noodles here. This is a legal forum, not a cooking forum. :)

You are not wrong in thinking that the poster should fear for themselves nor were you wrong suggesting that they talk to the police.

I am not a lawyer, but I have quite a bit of experience answering questions like this according to the law and have done significant research on the topic. Ive gotten my share of reddies for answering incorrectly, or at least incompletely... knowledge comes through making mistakes. Don't let it get you down.

My advice is to begin most phrases with "My advice" or "If it was me". Those indicate opinion or anecdotal information.

A smart man gave me a piece of advice... "read more, write less until you can write what you have read" :)

ScottGem · Jan 19, 2009, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by Jake2008

The tenant surely has a right to protect herself from unlawful entry. By not immediately changing the locks under THESE circumstances, she leaves herself wide open, unprotected, and at the mercy of a stranger to enter her apartment again.

What if that person was a psychopath. What if he robs her blind. By not changing the locks and waiting for the landlord to get around to it, and something did happen, what do you think the police would say?

Unfortunately a large part of the penalties for breaking the law are reactive. If the OP or their possessions were harmed or damaged, the OP would have a lawsuit against the landlord for negligence. I know this wouldn't help if it were a psychopath who killed the OP, but unfortunately that's the way the law works.

Originally Posted by Jake2008

What else, just out of curiosity can a person in such a position do. I had recommended that she call the police for advice, thinking that if she had to wait for the landlord, they may be better able to advise her in how she can proceed in the meantime. Also to note, the landlord was in agreement to change the locks anyway, he likely would have agreed to her doing this sooner rather than later.

Calling the police was a good idea. The previous tenant probably just want to retrieve something they forgot when they moved. But since the landlord knew who it was, the police could contact that person and tell them they were breaking the law and a repeat would get them arrested.

Another thing would be to get a chain guard or door jam. This could be put on while the tenant was at home to protect from surprises. Or they could do as I suggested and get permission to change the locks.

Originally Posted by Jake2008

And, my apologies for stating an opinion. I didn't realize that answers here came from legal experts ie lawyers. I honestly didn't notice that it was 'real estate law'. I'm new here, maybe cut me some slack? :confused:

I can understand that you didn't pay attention to what forum the question was posted in. That's not uncommon. But one of the main purposes of the comments feature is to warn the OP when someone posts advice that could cause them harm. The comment shows right with the post to negate the advice. That's why I used that feature. Your advice could have gotten the OP evicted.

Jake2008 · Jan 19, 2009, 08:18 AM

Thank you for all the comments.

Short of putting both feet in mouth again (I know, I know this is not a dental problem thread), I'll leave it as a lesson learned. ;)

JudyKayTee · Jan 20, 2009, 12:56 PM

[QUOTE=Comments on this post
junkyarddog agrees: I am the current tenant and do not feel I was negligent in any way. I had no idea that the locks had not been changed. IT is now Tuesday and my locks have not been changed., however, I have not noticed that there has been any furthur invasion..[/QUOTE]

I would be at the landlord's door demanding that the locks be changed and I would be insistent.

I certainly appreciate how you feel about negligence/non negligence but I think tenants have to take some responsibility for forcing landlords to keep promises, particularly when the decision to rent is based on those promises, and tenants (likewise) have to protect themselves.

I wouldn't have believed the "I'll get the locks" changed comment and most definitely would have asked.

But, again, I'm a landlord.

The fact that someone wandered in once and nothing was done would have me at the landlord's door right now.

ScottGem · Jan 20, 2009, 07:31 PM

Comments on this post
junkyarddog agrees: I am the current tenant and do not feel I was negligent in any way. I had no idea that the locks had not been changed. IT is now Tuesday and my locks have not been changed. however, I have not noticed that there has been any furthur invasion

I don't think anyone said you were negligent. The problem is, just because the landlord was negligent, doesn't allow you to violate the lease.

But you do have to keep on top of the landlord. If he doesn't fulfill his promises then you have to insist.

Jake2008 · Jan 22, 2009, 06:57 AM

To junkyarddog,

How has this been resolved.

Adam Jacobson · Jan 24, 2009, 10:40 PM

If he does business this way then you have to think that there could be MANY people with this key.

You should tell the landlord that you will get the locks changed and give him the bill and the new key. This way you know you are getting it done correctly and it will get done immediately.

Adam

excon · Jan 25, 2009, 04:25 AM

Hello:

I'm a tenant. I don't EVEN want my LANDLORD to have a key. So, I change the locks.

Yes, I know it's a violation of my lease, and no I don't advise people to do it here on the legal boards...

Ok, that's not true. I spose I HAVE advised people to do it - one, in partucular, that I can remember...

excon

PS> I ain't no stinkin lawyer...

JudyKayTee · Jan 25, 2009, 06:50 AM

In reading back through this I note that the OP resides in a sober living unit. It is entirely possible that the tenants by lease or agreement cannto change their locks and have signed a document allowing the people running the program free access to the apartment - or else they are not accepted. (My sister is a social worker and this is how safe living houses in my area operate.)

Was the person who entered merely a former tenant or a former tenant, now some sort of advisor?

Fr_Chuck · Jan 25, 2009, 08:35 AM

Yes, the "sober" agreement may be another issue to this.
But I do agree with excon, on this one, I know what the management of my apartment complex wants and I know what my lease says, but I changed my lock myself also. I do't want them to have a key,
So I go into violation of the lease anyway. Not legal but I feel safer