[Wondergirl]

Hey, why'd you have to bring forelocks into this? Come on, keep it PG people!

Apparently, Akoue has never groomed a horse and smoothed its forelocks.

[inthebox]

It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

Are we the primary products of our genetic heritage and have no choice but to follow our instincts?

Are genetic predispositions [ such as to addictions, or depression or premature heart disease ] something that we should just resign ourselves to and not attempt to ask God to help guide us ?

I may not have to deal with homosexual urges, but as a married male should I just give in to my inborn desire to be with other women?


G&P

[Akoue]

Apparently, Akoue has never groomed a horse and smoothed its forelocks.

Oh, foreLOCKS! See, all this talk about the Law and I somehow got it into my head you were talking about fore-something-else. (Actually, it just sounded funny in my head.)

[Wondergirl]

Are we the primary products of our genetic heritage and have no choice but to follow our instincts?

On which days do you choose to be homosexual? I want to be here then. Or do you always follow your instinct to be straight?

And my autistic son would love to tell you a few things about genetic heritage.

[Wondergirl]

Oh, foreLOCKS! See, all this talk about the Law and I somehow got it into my head you were talking about fore-something-else. (Actually, it just sounded funny in my head.)

It never crossed my mind, what you were thinking. I'm a girl and don't think about stuff like that.

[cozyk]

that's just us. Previous translators and interpreters have also used THEIR idea of what God was really trying to say.
What happened to the tolerant loving person you claim to be?

I am a Catholic and I follow the interpretation of the Church. That interpretation has been the same for the past 2000 years. And for the Old Testament the same for the past 7000 years at least.

The problem is that you don't like that interpretation and you want us to change it to fit your beliefs.

What am I intolerant of? I just pointed out that there are different interpretations of words in the bible. Who is to say who is right? The church? That's just people too. I don't need to change it to fit my needs because I don't take it as the "be all and end all" of instructions for life in the first place. My conscience and my "higher power" dictate my choices and what I believe my god expects of me.


Still you not tolerating my belief. The Church has interpreted the Scriptures the same since the Scriptures were written. In fact, the Church wrote the NT so they very well know what it means and explain it.

It's not that I don't tolerate your belief. I just don't agree with your belief. "The church" this and "the church" that. "The church" is just "the go between". You don't need the church to communicate with your god. Here's a question for you. What if you had never been exposed to a church or a bible? Would you still have a moral compass that you lived by? Or does all your sense of right and wrong come from a book aka the bible or "the church"?

All men are born with a fallen nature. Adulterers and fornicators have to resist the very same lustful impulses.

Until you or I am born with the desire to be with the same sex partner, we have no right to assume that adulterers and fornicators are in the same boat as homosexuals.

Because you don't understand the Scriptures nor the power of God:
You got that right. Especially the part about understanding scripture. Like you said earlier, OT, 7000 years ago and the NT, 2000 years ago.. Actually, I think it takes a lot of audacity for anyone to claim they do draw the right conclusion from it's writings. That is why I just go straight to the big guy and cut out the middle man.


Us?
I was raised as a christian but I am finding it more and more difficult to claim that title with pride.
Quote:



It behooves us as Christians to be honest about what is sin and what is life. And to teach them how to get on the road to life.

It behooves us as Christians to avoid those who prefer to revel in their sin.

Sin? says you.

And they shall bear a child. That is the one flesh in which they are one. The child born of that union is the two made one. Every child is a living symbol of a man's love for his wife and the wife's love for her husband.
__________________
Every child is NOT a symbol of a man's love for his wife. Some children are a product of two teenagers in a back seat, or the result of a rape, or a total accident, or the product of two people thinking they can save their sorry marriage by having a baby.
That statement is just not true.

[Wondergirl]

It behooves us as Christians to avoid those who prefer to revel in their sin.

Who doesn't revel in their sin when revel also means do it over and over again, maybe repenting in between but never really stopping. We are all sinners. Should we avoid each other--or be like Jesus, i.e. Christlike?

[De Maria]

It has nothing to do with teaching them something.

We believe it does. Because of our fallen nature, we all have to learn how to do good. Without God's revelation, we search in shadows for the Good which is God. But God has revealed Himself through His Church.

H

omosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

I believe you are wrong. Heterosexual deviants wake up saying exactly that. And homosexuality is simply the lust for homosexual relations.

Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.

That Law has been fulfilled.

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

On which days do you choose to be homosexual? I wanna be here then. Or do you always follow your instinct to be straight?

And my autistic son would love to tell you a few things about genetic heritage.

Being autistic is not a sin and therefore not comparable.

Homosexuals have a choice whether to engage in their lust or not.

[De Maria]

Who doesn't revel in their sin when revel also means do it over and over again, maybe repenting in between but never really stopping. We are all sinners. Should we avoid each other--or be like Jesus, i.e., Christlike?

Did Jesus teach the adultress to revel in her sin?

[De Maria]

What am I intolerant of? I just pointed out that there are different interpretations of words in the bible.

Oh. Sorry.

Who is to say who is right? The church?

Yes.

That's just people too.

We believe they are people guided by the Holy Spirit.

[quote] I don't need to change it to fit my needs because I don't take it as the "be all and end all" of instructions for life in the first place. My conscience and my "higher power" dictate my choices and what I believe my god expects of me.

Ultimately, our conscience is our guide. My conscience tells me to follow the Church.

It's not that I don't tolerate your belief. I just don't agree with your belief.

And that is my point. When we disagree, you call it intolerance. When you disagree, you call it freedom of conscience or speech or whatever. Its a sin for us but its a virtue for you. Double standard is what it is.

"The church" this and "the church" that. "The church" is just "the go between". You don't need the church to communicate with your god.

Thats your opinion. Your opinion this, your opinion that. Disregard your opinion and accept mine.

[quote] Here's a question for you. What if you had never been exposed to a church or a bible? Would you still have a moral compass that you lived by? Or does all your sense of right and wrong come from a book aka the bible or "the church"?

I was atheist for approximately 17 years. Therefore I know that my initial contact with religion I didn't understand it and left. But having discovered that God existed, I searched the many purported religions that I knew about and I was thoroughly convinced by the evidence and the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Until you or I am born with the desire to be with the same sex partner, we have no right to assume that adulterers and fornicators are in the same boat as homosexuals.

There are many former homosexuals who have repented and become Christians. And many bi-sexuals who have done the same. The account they give parallels sexual lust in every way.

You got that right. Especially the part about understanding scripture. Like you said earlier, OT, 7000 years ago and the NT, 2000 years ago.. Actually, I think it takes a lot of audacity for anyone to claim they do draw the right conclusion from it's writings. That is why I just go straight to the big guy and cut out the middle man.

I think it takes a lot of audacity for someone born in this century to draw the conclusion that their brand new religion is right and the faith of millions through the centuries is wrong.

I was raised as a christian but I am finding it more and more difficult to claim that title with pride.
Quote:

Don't worry. We don't take any pride in your beliefs either. In fact, we disown them.

Sin? says you.

Sin says Scripture.

Every child is NOT a symbol of a man's love for his wife. Some children are a product of two teenagers in a back seat, or the result of a rape, or a total accident, or the product of two people thinking they can save their sorry marriage by having a baby.
That statement is just not true.

I stand corrected. But every child is a sign of God's love for us. And if men and women continue to take that which is good and use it for evil, it is our own fault. God gave us the wherewithal to choose the good.

Sincerely,

[cozyk]

Quote:
Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.
That Law has been fulfilled.

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Huh? I don't get the connection between the hair cut and your statement about "The Law has been fulfilled." bla bla bla.
__________________

[De Maria]

Quote:
Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.
That Law has been fulfilled.

Romans 7:3
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Huh? I don't get the connection between the hair cut and your statement about "The Law is Written" bla bla bla.
__________________

"The Law is Written" bla bla bla.?

I don't see that in what you quoted.

[Wondergirl]

We believe it does [have something to do with teaching homosexuals something]. Because of our fallen nature, we all have to learn how to do good.

You took what you wanted from my comment which was:
It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

I believe you are wrong. Heterosexual deviants wake up saying exactly that. And homosexuality is simply the lust for homosexual relations.

No, they don't. I have several good friends who are homosexual and a sil who is. None of them wake up and decide to be either a homosexual or a heterosexual. It is something in their very bones, not a choice, but who they are to the bottom of their soul.

No more could each of them decide to be heterosexual--truly heterosexual with no trace of homosexuality--than you could to become a homosexual with no trace of heterosexuality.

If it is a choice, please choose to be homosexual and have no more heterosexuality left in you. If it works one way, it should work the other. Let me know how it goes.

That Law has been fulfilled.

So some laws in Lev. Are fulfilled, but others, only a chapter away, are not? My understanding is that Jesus fulfilled the entire Law, not just bits and pieces of it. His Law, the New Covenant, now has only two commandments: Love God and love each other.

[Akoue]

Just a very brief clarification.

It is important to distinguish between sexual orientation and sexual acts. The Catholic Church instructs that gays and lesbians, along with unmarried heterosexuals, are to refrain from sexual acts. The Catechism even expressly states that to discriminate against gays on account of their orientation is a sin. But the Church teaches also that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is a grave sin, and this doesn't just apply to adultery, of course. It is the acts, not the orientation, that is the issue. (As Wondergirl says, it seems unlikely that one chooses to be straight or gay. What is a matter of choice is how any of us act on our dispositions, sexual or otherwise--some people have an irascible disposition but train themselves not to act on it, etc.)

Again, just a clarification. I don't mean to suggest that this will settle anything.

[De Maria]

You took what you wanted from my comment which was:
It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

I'm not sure what you mean by "you took what you wanted from my comment...".

No, they don't. I have several good friends who are homosexual and a sil who is. None of them wake up and decide to be either a homosexual or a heterosexual.

But they decide whether they will act upon their lusts.

It is something in their very bones, not a choice, but who they are to the bottom of their soul.

It doesn't matter if that is true, which I don't believe. They still have a choice whether to act upon their lusts or not. Just as we all do.

No more could each of them decide to be heterosexual--truly heterosexual with no trace of homosexuality--than you could to become a homosexual with no trace of heterosexuality.

Precisely. But they don't have to act upon their homosexual urges. Just as heterosexuals don't have to act upon theirs.

If it is a choice, please choose to be homosexual and have no more heterosexuality left in you. If it works one way, it should work the other. Let me know how it goes.

I didn't say that one could choose to have certain urges. But one can choose whether to act upon them. They are temptations to sin. And everyone, every single human being is tempted to sin.

So some laws in Lev. Are fulfilled, but others, only a chapter away, are not? My understanding is that Jesus fulfilled the entire Law, not just bits and pieces of it. His Law, the New Covenant, now has only two commandments: Love God and love each other.

That is correct. But keeping the Law of Jesus one fulfills the Law of Moses:
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

[De Maria]

Just a very brief clarification.

It is important to distinguish between sexual orientation and sexual acts. The Catholic Church instructs that gays and lesbians, along with unmarried heterosexuals, are to refrain from sexual acts. The Catechism even expressly states that to discriminate against gays on account of their orientation is a sin. But the Church teaches also that heterosexual sex outside of marriage is a grave sin, and this doesn't just apply to adultery, of course. It is the acts, not the orientation, that is the issue. (As Wondergirl says, it seems unlikely that one chooses to be straight or gay. What is a matter of choice is how any of us act on our dispositions, sexual or otherwise--some people have an irascible disposition but train themselves not to act on it, etc.)

Again, just a clarification. I don't mean to suggest that this will settle anything.

Thanks. My point exactly!

[Wondergirl]

But they don't have to act upon their homosexual urges. Just as heterosexuals don't have to act upon theirs.

You are celibate (and chaste) then, a monk or a priest?

That is correct. But keeping the Law of Jesus one fulfills the Law of Moses:
Romans 3:31

So those two verses in Lev. both yours and mine, are no longer valid under the Gospel.

[JoeT777]

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely. For example. I BELIEVE that my dog in the next room is still breathing. I would not KNOW it, unless I went to him and saw his chest rise, etc.

There are VERY FEW things in this world that we can say we know100% . If I said "I know my car is still in the garage" I'd feel pretty confident with that assumption. BUT, if I was ask to bet my child's life on that, I would very quickly reduce that KNOW to an "I BELIEVE my car is still in the garage.

Now, everyone seems to be getting this except Tom. He insist that he knows there is a god, there is proof of god and he has evidence to back it up. The only thing is, you haven't showed us your proof or evidence. I happen to believe there IS a god, but notice I said believe.

Please share your proof with me. Bible scripture does not do it because there is no proof that it is correct.

To Know:

St. Thomas (Summa Theologica I:2:3; Cont. Gent. I, xiii) provides us with the logic of how we can know of God's existence:

• Motion, i.e. the passing from power to act, as it takes place in the universe implies a first unmoved Mover (primum movens immobile), who is God; else we should postulate an infinite series of movers, which is inconceivable.

• For the same reason efficient causes, as we see them operating in this world, imply the existence of a First Cause that is uncaused, i.e. that possesses in itself the sufficient reason for its existence; and this is God.

• The fact that contingent beings exist, i.e. beings whose non-existence is recognized as possible, implies the existence of a necessary being, who is God.

• The graduated perfections of being actually existing in the universe can be understood only by comparison with an absolute standard that is also actual, i.e. an infinitely perfect Being such as God.

• The wonderful order or evidence of intelligent design which the universe exhibits implies the existence of a supramundane Designer, who is no other than God Himself.

SOURCE: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Existence of God

Consequently, we see once again a right reasoned logic shows us that God is omnipotent as well as omniscient.

JoeT

[De Maria]

You are celibate (and chaste) then, a monk or a priest?

I am a married man who honors his vows.

So those two verses in Lev. both yours and mine, are no longer valid under the Gospel.

Didn't I already answer that?

Keeping the Law of Jesus one fulfills the Law of Moses:
Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.