[simoneaugie]

Quote: De Maria
Homosexuality for instance. It is intrinsically evil. Yet many claim that those who participate in that sin are showing "love".

So what do you mean? Do you mean that to show "love" I must tolerate every sin which people consider good?

Yes, love your neighbor can only be taken as exactly what it directs. Does it have a different meaning if you neighbor is a sex offender or a convicted murderer, or simply an enemy? My next door neighbor is a Christian and a homosexual. Should I be intolerant of the fact that he is not me at the moment?

You asked me what rules I was referring to, right after I told you what they were. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Here are the rules in a linear and negative format:

1. Be intolerant and judgemental of others who you feel are not following the rules you have set for yourself.

2. Outline those characteristics and personal qualities that you deem to be intrinsically evil. Refuse to love and verbally condemn those who exibit those characteristics.

3. Start murderous wars or inquisitions to show how strong and determined you are to dominate and control. Your religion demands it.

Yes, if someone killed me, they would be making a choice. The choice is forgivable, all of our actions are, yours and mine. If you call a thing evil or intolerable, you're calling God that. He created the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. To separate the evil ones out is to remove part of that which can't be separated from itself, God.

This I both believe and know. If you do not agree, I tolerate our differences, agree to disagree. You do not.

[Hamselv007]

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

Im a christian as well. Well kind of.

And you don't know. You believe, you don't know.

[De Maria]

Yes, love your neighbor can only be taken as exactly what it directs.

You have a different interpretation of love than we. Love doesn't mean "tolerate". Love means to admonish those who are going down the road of perdition so that they may also save their souls.

Ezekiel 3:18
When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.

Does it have a different meaning if you neighbor is a sex offender or a convicted murderer, or simply an enemy?

Yes, it does. We are not to be party to evil:

1 Corinthians 5 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

My next door neighbor is a Christian and a homosexual.

He is either a Christian and a FORMER homosexual or a homosexual. If he is a practicing homosexual, he may profess to be Christian, but he isn't.

Should I be intolerant of the fact that he is not me at the moment?

You can do what you want, I will follow Christ.

You asked me what rules I was referring to, right after I told you what they were. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Here are the rules in a linear and negative format:

1. Be intolerant and judgemental of others who you feel are not following the rules you have set for yourself.

As Christians we follow the law of God. The rules we set for ourselves are all based on the Law of God.

2. Outline those characteristics and personal qualities that you deem to be intrinsically evil. Refuse to love and verbally condemn those who exibit those characteristics.

That's how you take it. We see it as warning them of their error. If you had a friend driving a road that headed over a cliff, would you simply let him drive to his doom?

3. Start murderous wars or inquisitions to show how strong and determined you are to dominate and control. Your religion demands it.

Don't believe the hype. The murderous wars were begun by enemies of Christ.

Yes, if someone killed me, they would be making a choice. The choice is forgivable, all of our actions are, yours and mine. If you call a thing evil or intolerable, you're calling God that. He created the heavens and the earth and all living creatures. To separate the evil ones out is to remove part of that which can't be separated from itself, God.

See the Scripture above, 1 Cor 5, which instructs us to separate ourselves from those who persist in sin after they've been warned to stop their evil behaviour.

Essentially, you are telling us to disobey God. But obeying God is how we demonstrate our love for Him.
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

And if we don't obey God, we won't inherit His Kingdom:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

This I both believe and know. If you do not agree, I tolerate our differences, agree to disagree. You do not.

Sure I do. But that doesn't mean we have to hang out together. You are free to believe whatever you like. But your beliefs will lead you down the road of perdition. I don't intend to go down that road.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[cozyk]

[QUOTE=De Maria;1449305]You have a different interpretation of love than we. Love doesn't mean "tolerate". Love means to admonish those who are going down the road of perdition so that they may also save their souls.

Different interpretation??? That is the problem with following the words of the bible. It is cram packed full of words left to interpretation. And that's just us. Previous translators and interpreters have also used THEIR idea of what God was really trying to say.



1 Corinthians 5 1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

All this scripture does nothing but jumble my brain. Also, I believe it has done more damage than good since some people interpret it to support their agenda and then bang people over the head with it. All in the name of love by the way.

He is either a Christian and a FORMER homosexual or a homosexual. If he is a practicing homosexual, he may profess to be Christian, but he isn't.

NOT How can love, caring, supporting, dedicating your life to another person ever be called wrong. We don't know what causes a person to be a homosexual. Born that way? Who knows, but don't you think that IF they had their "druthers" they would choose the more accepted, much smoother road to go down than the one that is ridden with people like you and others who condemn them? Some homosexuals lose their families, jobs, friends, because of who they love. That is a crying shame. It is already a hardship for gays that were wired this way for whatever reason. I think it behooves us as "christians" to be loving and accepting of them.


You can do what you want, I will follow Christ

Ask yourself, What would Jesus do? Remember those bracelets? WWJD, I loved them? I don't believe a loving god would turn his back on his children.



As Christians we follow the law of God. The rules we set for ourselves are all based on the Law of God.



That's how you take it. We see it as warning them of their error. If you had a friend driving a road that headed over a cliff, would you simply let him drive to his doom?

Good point. I really do believe you mean well. I just believe God is bigger than to be so unforgiving of people who are sharing their life, making their home, loving, respecting, and caring for their partner, and just happen to be the same sex.

Anytime two people are doing this is a good thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex.
Anytime two people promised to do this, but have not lived up to their promises and made a mockery of their vows is a bad thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex. I think God has a MUCH bigger concern with this scenario.

[Fr_Chuck]

This is just it, God is a jealous god, he hates sin, he must punish sin, he did love mankind more than anything, and that is why he sent Jesus to be a way to save us from the punishment that we deserve.

The trouble with many is they will not accept and admit that some of their actions are wrong and a sin.

a person who steals know it is wrong, and would confess and try to stop stealing when they become a christian. They may fail sometimes, but they know it is wrong when they do it. The person who does not know it is wrong, has to be convicted by the Holy Spirit in their heart to know it is wrong before they can repent.

So it is with all of the sins, until the sinner will admit their sin and confess it, and repent, there is no forgiveness for the sin.
Without being forgiven and repentance, there is no salvation.

So it is true, that one is not really a Christian, if they will not admit their sin and try and turn from their sin.

[cozyk]

The trouble with many is they will not accept and admit that some of their actions are wrong and a sin.

Personally, I have no problem recognizing sin, knowing when I'm doing it, and changing my ways.
Maybe gays are not admitting it is a sin because they don't believe they are sinning. I don't think they are. God made them the way they are. This is not a matter of stealing, killing, being unkind, or anything else that is a choice. This is an innate trait like being born with brown eyes, or possessing a certain talent.

a person who steals know it is wrong, and would confess and try to stop stealing when they become a christian. They may fail sometimes, but they know it is wrong when they do it. The person who does not know it is wrong, has to be convicted by the Holy Spirit in their heart to know it is wrong before they can repent.

Christians do not corner the market on morality. It doesn't take being a christian to know what is right and what is wrong.. Many christians think atheist behave with evil intent. Not so. They can be just as good or better than any self proclaimed christian.

So it is with all of the sins, until the sinner will admit their sin and confess it, and repent, there is no forgiveness for the sin.
Without being forgiven and repentance, there is no salvation.

So it is true, that one is not really a Christian, if they will not admit their sin and try and turn from their sin.

This is what makes me move away from my christian up bringing.
Christians have taken a book that is filled with contradictions, interpretations, translations, a god that supports slavery, killing, treating women as lesser humans and take it as factual black and white. No gray area at all. I don't get the reasoning there. General guide book, okay. The literal truth, I don't think so . It's been through too many human fallible hands. But, that is just me.


__________________

[Akoue]

I've been thinking about this thread for a couple of days now and still feel a bit uncertain about entering into it, mostly because I have sympathies with both sides of the debate. The attempt to prove God's existence is, of course, very old indeed. Typically, these attempts come in two forms: empirical proofs (e.g. Aguinas's famous--or infamous--Five Ways) and a priori (e.g. Anselm's brilliant Ontological Argument--which has probably accounted for few if any conversions). The trend in the discussion so far has been to look for empirical proof for God's existence, and here an awful lot turns on one's notion of what counts as *evidence*. To borrow Russell's famous example: If I put out a saucer of milk and come back later to find the milk gone, this may count as evidence that there's a cat in the house because that's the best explanation for the disappearance of the milk (I know, giving cats milk is a bad idea--I'm not sure Russell knew that). This is typically called inference to the best explanation: Given the facts as we have them, the best explanation is... People who adduce the complexity of the universe as proof of God's existence often avail themselves--implicitly or explicitly--of inference to the best explanation.

Of course, there is no guarantee that our best explanation is the right explanation. Science depends upon this, for instance: The progress of science depends upon the defeasibility of its claims, the fact that the best explanations of today may be superceded by the best explanations of tomorrow. And so science advances. This means, however, that any best explanation that we have available to us at any given time is only probabilistic, not apodictically certain. And this leads some to crave an a priori proof, one that isn't so contingent upon our best, but probabilistic and so defeasible, explanatory practices.

As someone who was an atheist for a good many years, I must say that I don't think I was just stupid to find proofs for God's existence uncompelling. And though I am not now an atheist, I find atheism perfectly reasonable: The mere fact that we do not now have a complete science, one that explains the creation of the universe, etc. does not by any means prove the existence of God.

The grounds for belief in God's existence are, I think, different from the grounds for belief that there is a cat in the house: The two have evidentiary bases that are different in kind. To ask for justification of the belief in God's existence is a bit more like asking someone to justify their reasons for loving the things they do. There are reasons there, of a sort, but they're not the kinds of reasons that, once offered, are necessarily going to compel another to love the same things.

I also find very distasteful the quickness with which many Christians are disposed to pass judgment. At the same time, though, De Maria brings up a point which is important, and salutary in these contexts: Friendship comes with obligations, responsibilities, and among these is the duty to tell your friend when he's out of line. If I have a friend who is abusing heroin, I am not being a good friend to him if I say nothing; so too if I have a friend who is cheating on his wife. If I truly care about someone, then I have an obligation to try to help him to be a better person, even if I am not one myself (i.e. even if I'm not better than him). Mutual correction is important in friendship. A friendship where the parties aren't concerned about each other's evolution into better versions of themselves is a shallow friendship indeed.

That said, I am constantly amazed by how many Christians will speak out against homosexuality because it is sinful, while remaining tolerant of avarice, which is also a sin. It's not okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to busy oneself with the acqisition of wealth and the perquisites that come with it. It isn't okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to exploit the labor of others. Etc. Christ said a whole lot more about the sinfulness of avarice and acquisitiveness than about homosexuality, after all. And the social ills that derive from the former far outweigh any reasonable case that can be made regarding the latter.

[cozyk]

Akoue,
Thanks for taking the time to address this. Gives us all something to ponder. You made some good points. ( Even if I did have to look up some of the big words!):D:D:D:D:D

[inthebox]

I don't know if this is the "proof" you seek:

I think it is in the lives of those that believe.
I work in the medical field, so it is unfortunantly all to common to treat people that have or had problems secondary to some addiction. Now some in recovery manage to do it "on their own" but the majority that I have seen attribute their recovery to God. That is their proof. Some of the roughest looking characters I've met, willingly and often joyfully give credit to the Lord. The other second hand proof that I see is harder to intuitively fathom : in those that are suffering. Suffering from the loss of a loved one, and though grieving still believe and trust in God's goodness. In those that are suffering and dying due to a physical ailment yet at are at peace in the knowledge of there place in eternity, knowing and believing in God despite the current situation they're in.


G&P

[sndbay]

Recently I read a book written by Francis S. Collins which was a scientist presents of evidence for belief. Book Title: The Language of God.

The author follows much of C.S. Lewis work, and tends to find his inspiration from Lewis. His question is pointed to, whether the mind of free will in choice does wish for, or desire something such as a good job, or a good wife? The answer being yes we know that we think with our mind and heart. Thus it is possible that this inner desire is the conscience of our belief knowing that this can be fulfilled. Creatures are not born with desire unless satisfaction for the desire exists. This conscience is present and can be felt as an experience of longing which can be more then wishful fulfillment, but rather a pointer towards something beyond us.

He too uses the idea of selfless heart, can it be the conscience of our connection with what is known as faith/God. This example of course would show no scientic proof of the worldwide material factor proven in evidence, yet he concluded that everyone does own some form of selfless conscience in a spiritual dimension known as moral law.

The challenge is to read this book and see what the outcome of views would be thereafter.

Personally I find the idea is one of conscience love for what is right over wrong.. Good over bad... as well as desire..

God tells us in scripture that Love holds the highest level in regards of wisdom. God loves us, and wants our love in return. God being perfect holds no tolerance to less then what he gives in his law. And God fights against the opposite which is satan, and what satan intends to achieve of his pridefulness. Thank goodness for The Grace of God..

[Choux]

I saw a tombstone in a television show, a tombstone from long ago. The words on the stone were:

"Here lies_____________
in hope of a
glorious resurrection"

This really captures the nature of Christianity and their God. I think it is beautifully expressed.

Religion is what some folks chose to believe. Religions use holy scriptures, not textbooks, to tell their story, and Christian new testament books have been heavily edited, as well as some old testament stories such as Creation.

Enjoy Belief. :)

[De Maria]

Different interpretation??? That is the problem with following the words of the bible. It is cram packed full of words left to interpretation. And that's just us. Previous translators and interpreters have also used THEIR idea of what God was really trying to say.

What happened to the tolerant loving person you claim to be?

I am a Catholic and I follow the interpretation of the Church. That interpretation has been the same for the past 2000 years. And for the Old Testament the same for the past 7000 years at least.

The problem is that you don't like that interpretation and you want us to change it to fit your beliefs.

All this scripture does nothing but jumble my brain. Also, I believe it has done more damage than good since some people interpret it to support their agenda and then bang people over the head with it. All in the name of love by the way.

Lol :)

Still you not tolerating my belief. The Church has interpreted the Scriptures the same since the Scriptures were written. In fact, the Church wrote the NT so they very well know what it means and explain it.

NOT How can love, caring, supporting, dedicating your life to another person ever be called wrong.

When it evolves into deviant, unnatural behavior which is not the will of God.

We don't know what causes a person to be a homosexual.

It doesn't matter what causes it. God gave us a will and a conscience so that we would fight sin and control our nature.

Born that way?

All men are born with a fallen nature. Adulterers and fornicators have to resist the very same lustful impulses.

Who knows, but don't you think that IF they had their "druthers" they would choose the more accepted, much smoother road to go down than the one that is ridden with people like you and others who condemn them?

The road to perdition? Everyone finds that road easier. The one that requires a little bit of will power is the one that everyone finds a little more difficult. But in my opinion, it is worth every bit of effort to travel down that road.

Some homosexuals lose their families, jobs, friends, because of who they love.

Because of their lust. Penalties are a part of every sin.

That is a crying shame. It is already a hardship for gays that were wired this way for whatever reason. I think it behooves us

Us?

as "christians" to be loving and accepting of them.

It behooves us as Christians to be honest about what is sin and what is life. And to teach them how to get on the road to life.

It behooves us as Christians to avoid those who prefer to revel in their sin.

Ask yourself, What would Jesus do? Remember those bracelets? WWJD, I loved them? I don't believe a loving god would turn his back on his children.

He hasn't. That is why He made His Church. So when they get ready to come back to Him, they have a home to return to. But if they choose their sin over His Love, then they have condemned themselves.

Good point. I really do believe you mean well. I just believe God is bigger than to be so unforgiving of people who are sharing their life, making their home, loving, respecting, and caring for their partner, and just happen to be the same sex.

Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Anytime two people are doing this is a good thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex.
Anytime two people promised to do this, but have not lived up to their promises and made a mockery of their vows is a bad thing. Whether they are male/female or same sex. I think God has a MUCH bigger concern with this scenario.

Because you don't understand the Scriptures nor the power of God:

God said:
Matthew 19 5 For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife,

Cleave to his wife, not boyfriend, not male lover. But wife. A woman.

and they two shall be in one flesh.

And they shall bear a child. That is the one flesh in which they are one. The child born of that union is the two made one. Every child is a living symbol of a man's love for his wife and the wife's love for her husband.

[De Maria]

....That said, I am constantly amazed by how many Christians will speak out against homosexuality because it is sinful, while remaining tolerant of avarice, which is also a sin. It's not okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to busy oneself with the acqisition of wealth and the perquisites that come with it. It isn't okay to be in a same-sex relationship, but it is okay to exploit the labor of others. Etc. Christ said a whole lot more about the sinfulness of avarice and acquisitiveness than about homosexuality, after all. And the social ills that derive from the former far outweigh any reasonable case that can be made regarding the latter.

The key is that avarice is not always a mortal sin. Those forms of avarice which are mortal sins are railed against as much or more than homosexuality. Actually, even those which aren't. Even perceived avarice gets a strong negative response throughout the world. What happens when the price of gas goes up at the pump?

Whereas homosexuality is always a mortal sin.

[NeedKarma]

Leviticus 18:22
"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

the Bible says that a man shall not lie with another man. That is true. But it also says, in the same book, that adultery is an abomination. And the just punishment for this sin is execution. So, who will execute the first adulterer? Please step on up.

[De Maria]

....As someone who was an athiest for a good many years,

You were an atheist? So was I. Perhaps we can hear your testimony one day?

[De Maria]

the Bible says that a man shall not lie with another man. That is true. But it also says, in the same exact book, that adultery is an abomination. And the just punishment for this sin is execution. So, who will execute the first adulterer? Please step on up.

The Catholic Church teaches that law has been fulfilled. The Law of Christ tells us that adulterers condemn themselves by killing their soul in mortal sin.

[Wondergirl]

The Catholic Church teaches that law has been fulfilled. The Law of Christ tells us that adulterers condemn themselves by killing their soul in mortal sin.

What is the Law of Christ? Where is it written?

There's no hope of forgiveness and heaven for adulterers?

[De Maria]

What is the Law of Christ?

The Law of Christ is the Law of Love.
Galatians 6:2
Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

Where is it written?

In our hearts and in our minds and in the Church and in Scripture and Tradition.

There's no hope of forgiveness and heaven for adulterers?

If they repent, yes. Not if they don't.

[Wondergirl]

It behooves us as Christians to be honest about what is sin and what is life. And to teach them how to get on the road to life.

It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination."

Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.

[Akoue]

It has nothing to do with teaching them something. Homosexuality is not taught or extinguished. Their brains are wired differently. No one wakes up one morning and says, "Yo, it's the first of the month. I'm going to be gay this month. Woo woo!"

Lev. 19:27 says (World English Bible), "You shall not cut the hair on the sides of your heads, neither shall you clip off the edge of your beard." I trust your forelocks and beard have never been trimmed, De Maria.

Hey, why'd you have to bring forelocks into this? Come on, keep it PG people!