[JoeT777]

I'm not sure what you mean by "private interpretation" here, so I'm not sure what your first question means. If anyone demanded worship (proskunesis) of Mary, I would regard that view as heretical.

The other question, the one you say I didn't answer, was rather vague. I'm not aware of a Doctor of the Church who said that we should not avail ourselves of Scripture and Tradition, so I'm not sure how to answer your question in a more precise way. Perhaps if you could flesh it out a bit I could try to offer a more satisfactory reply.

I don't think Tj understands the role of 'doctor' in the Church. You might want to explain how it works. As I understand it among other things he must be a baptized Christian and subscribe to the profession of faith. As a rule only priests receive doctorate of theology and canon law. Their only role is to advise and may appear as advocates before the Roman tribunals. The Pope maintains has the authority to create doctors and sometimes delegates this authority to universities and seminaries. What is important here is doctors are advisory titles, the role being to 'teach' the faith not make it. Source: (link0 CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Doctor

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

I don't think Tj understands the role of 'doctor' in the Church...the role being to 'teach' the faith not make it.

That's why I asked him who it is. He cagily mentioned someone in authority who advocates the worship of Mary but didn't bother to name and quote that person.

[De Maria]

How about when a doctor of the Catholic church says that we must worship Mary, and scripture says that we are not worship anyone but God?

What you have described can't happen. All "doctors" of the Church, of which I'm aware, have been designated such, post mortem. Here's a list:
http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/IOD.html

And they would not have been designated such if they had interpreted Scripture incorrectly.

What you are describing is a conflict between a personal interpretation and Scripture. The Church judges whether the interpretation is valid. If the judgement is that it is invalid, the person is asked to change his interpretation in line with the Church.

How about when a doctor of the Catholic church says that we are to decide or test all doctrine by scripture, and other says that we are to use tradition?

Can't happen. Doctors of the Church are so named postmortem.

However, what you describe is two Catholics who disagree on doctrine. This has happened frequently in history. The Church decides which is right based upon whose interpretation is supported by Scripture and Tradition. A famous case is Arius vs. Athanasius.

I believe that I have as we have carried on the discussion.

I don't recall it either. Why don't you refresh our memory?

Now, I am still waiting for your answer to my question - third time in asking. Consider it hypotehtical if you wish, I don't care - but what do you do when a contradiction arises in tradition or between tradition and scripture?

You are spelling tradition with a little "t". When laypeople begin cultural traditions which contradict Scripture. The Church steps in and corrects them.

Traditions spelled with a big T signifying that they are the Word of God do not contradict Scripture. Its impossible.

[De Maria]

By the way I'll be leaving tomorrow morning.
Bonnie and I are going up near the Canadian border to visit USA And Canadian relatives for Christmas.
I'll be back Sunday nihj or Monday, God willing, to continue here.
Merry, Holy Christmas,
Fred

May God keep and protect you.

Merry Christmas!

[arcura]

De Maria< right you are.
Good night.
Fred

[Tj3]

Already answered.

No, you showed me where scripture says that he was chosen by men, but where does it say that God endorsed him as an Apostle?

[JoeT777]

De Maria< right you are.
Good night.
Fred

Have fun and stay safe. We'll be talk'en when you get back.

Merry Christmas

Joe

[Tj3]

What you have described can't happen. All "doctors" of the Church, of which I'm aware, have been designated such, post mortem. Here's a list:
Introduction to the Doctors of the Catholic Church

And they would not have been designated such if they had interpreted Scripture incorrectly.

Heh heh, squirming a bit are you because what you believe cannot happen did.

Alphonse Liguori

What you are describing is a conflict between a personal interpretation and Scripture. The Church judges whether the interpretation is valid. If the judgement is that it is invalid, the person is asked to change his interpretation in line with the Church.

Private interpretation of men.

You want to believe that it cannot happen. It did, it has happened, and it does happen.

But now answer my question - why do you do when tradition contradicts itself or scripture? You are doing a great job of avoiding the question.

[Akoue]

So there are 32 officially designated Doctors of the Church. They include the 8 Fathers (Athanasius, Basil, Gregory Nazianzen, John Chrysostom, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, and Gregory the Great). The last two Doctors to be named were Catherine of Sienna and Teresa of Avila (in 1970).

[De Maria]

No, you showed me where scripture says that he was chosen by men, but where does it say that God endorsed him as an Apostle?

No. The lot fell on Matthias. If you believe in chance, then he was chosen by men. But if you believe that God ordains everything, then God made the lot fall on Matthias.

Acts 1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles

How do you interpret it?

[Tj3]

I don’t think Tj understands the role of ‘doctor’ in the Church. You might want to explain how it works. As I understand it among other things he must be a baptized Christian and subscribe to the profession of faith. As a rule only priests receive doctorate of theology and canon law. Their only role is to advise and may appear as advocates before the Roman tribunals. The Pope maintains has the authority to create doctors and sometimes delegates this authority to universities and seminaries. What is important here is doctors are advisory titles, the role being to ‘teach’ the faith not make it. Source: (link0 CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Doctor

JoeT

Heh heh heh, I find it interesting that you have to suggest that I don't know what I am talking about because the reality is just unthinkable.

[Tj3]

No. The lot fell on Matthias. If you believe in chance, then he was chosen by men. But if you believe that God ordains everything, then God made the lot fall on Matthias.

Acts 1:26
And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles

How do you interpret it?

So we see that they cast lots - I never said that they did not. Men do lots of things that are are not ordained by God to try to figured out things. Often men do not wait upon the Lord as they should. This is not taking anything away from Matthias as a godly man, but I don't see where scripture says that He had God's endorsement as an Apostle.

Where does it say that God endorsed Matthias as an Apostle?

[Akoue]

Tj, really, there's a whole thread dedicated to the number of the Apostles. Why don't you respond to De Maria's post there? This isn't the topic of this thread.

[Tj3]

Just trying to stay on topic TJ. From my perspective, it is you who seems to want to run the thread any direction you want. Is there something wrong with discussing Scripture and Tradition on the Scripture and Tradition thread?

Perhaps you should ask a moderator.

Who said that there was? Is there something wrong with responding to questions asked of one on a thread?


Perhaps you should ask a moderator.

[De Maria]

heh heh, squirming a bit are you because what you believe cannot happen did.

Alphonse Liguori

St. Alphonsus "Marie" de Liguori. My deep respect and veneration for him is one of the reasons I also adopted Mary's name.

Show me what you think he did to contradict Scripture.

Better yet. Your question regarding how contradictions to the Word of God are dealt with has been answered. Now you simply have a problem with St. Alphonsus Liguori or with your interpretation of something he may have or may not have said.

[Tj3]

Tj, really, there's a whole thread dedicated to the number of the Apostles. Why don't you respond to De Maria's post there? This isn't the topic of this thread.

I did not see it, but I guess my question is, I just responded to comments made to me. I am not carrying on on that sub-topic, but you are. I suggested before that if you don't want to discuss it, then don't discuss it and it will die off.

But for some reason you and De Maria keep raising it and then suggest that I should not respond.

[Tj3]

St. Alphonsus "Marie" de Liguori. My deep respect and veneration for him is one of the reasons I also adopted Mary's name.

Show me what you think he did to contradict Scripture.

I told you already.

[De Maria]

Who said that there was? Is there something wrong with responding to questions asked of one on a thread?


Perhaps you should ask a moderator.

Done. I hope we'll receive a prompt answer.

[Akoue]

Who said that there was? Is there something wrong with responding to questions asked of one on a thread?


Perhaps you should ask a moderator.

Well, until you start answering the questions that have been repeatedly put to you, I can't see why anyone here should be obliged to answer yours. If you want to start a topic of conversation, click the ask question button and start your own thread. Please stop trying to hijack this one--which has been going along very nicely, thank you.

[Akoue]

Done. I hope we'll receive a prompt answer.

Thank you, De Maria.