[arcura]

What messenger??
You have been proven wrong here so many times I've lost count.
You still spew you false rot about The Church starting at 325 AD.
You have been proven wrong about that for many years bu refuse the truth and continue to make false accusations.
Some messenger you are.
LOL

[Tj3]

How does Jn.7.39 pose a problem for De Maria's claim? It says that the Spirit had not yet come. I don't see how it speaks to the point at issue.

John 7:38-39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

You need to read the whole verse.

[JoeT777]

Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria

Was Judas Iscariot an Apostle of Christ's?

Yes.

Was he therefore baptized?

Probably. Though I do not believe that scripture says one way or the other.

I would say that he was, all of the apostles were followers of John. It would seem strange that Judas was the one and only one that didn’t get baptized.

And did he receive the Holy Spirit?

No. The indwelling was not yet given John 7:39.

He didn’t need to indwell. Judas was face to face with God and looked to him as his messiah and in the end turned and rejected him. So, once being “saved” was he then taken into heaven?

Was he saved?

I cannot say if he received Christ as his saviour before he died. I could only speculate.

See my comment above.

JoeT

[Tj3]

What messenger?????
You have been proven wrong here so many times I've lost count.
You still spew you false rot about The Church starting at 325 AD.
You have been proven wrong about that for many years bu refuse the truth and continue to make false accusations.
Some messenger you are.
LOL

Fred, if you have something of value to add, then by all means. Your obsession with posting abuse about me should be a matter of concern to you.

[N0help4u]

Hebrews 6 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit may indwell the unsaved.

I agree with Tj3 this in noway supports that the Holy Spirit is indwelling the unsaved. In fact the exact opposite.

It says if they were once enlightened and made partakers of the Holy Spirit [meaning partakers AFTER they were enlightened] THEN it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance once they fall away.

So how does it prove unsaved are indwelled with the Holy Spirit?

[arcura]

JoeT
Again you have proven your point.
Well done
Fred

[Akoue]

De Maria's claim: "those who are Baptized and have received the Holy Spirit are not necessarily saved"

John 7:38-39
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
NKJV

You need to read the whole verse.

Okay, the believers were going to receive the Spirit. And this shows that they cannot, for instance, later renounce their faith, etc. Certainly we don't find the words "saved" or "salvation" used here. So can you explain how this pericope falsifies De Maria's claim? I'm not seeing it.

[arcura]

Tj3,
I have been posting valuable truth about you and scripture.
Its to bad that you did not noticed.
Fred

[JoeT777]

Fred, if you have something of value to add, then by all means. Your obsession with posting abuse about me should be a matter of concern to you.

I'd like to see a response to the following - are you just going to ignor it?:

Pre 325, lets see:

Believe in Sola Scriptura? No.

Papias

Whenever anyone came my way, who had been a follower of my seniors, I would ask for the accounts of our seniors: What did Andrew or Peter say? Or Phillip or Thomas or James or John or Matthew, or any of the Lord’s disciples? I also asked: What did Aristion and John the Presbyter, disciples of the Lord say. For, as I see it, it is not so much from books as from the living and permanent voice that I must draw profit (The Sayings of the Lord [between A.D. 115 and 140] as recorded by Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 3:39 [A.D. 325]).

Irenaeus

For even creation reveals Him who formed it, and the very work made suggests Him who made it, and the world manifests Him who ordered it. The Universal [Catholic] Church, moreover, through the whole world, has received this tradition from the Apostles (Against Heresies 2:9 [A.D. 189]).

True knowledge is the doctrine of the Apostles, and the ancient constitution of the Church throughout all the world, and the distinctive manifestation of the body of Christ according to the successions of the bishops, by which they have handed down that Church which exists in every place, and has come even unto us, being guarded and preserved, without any forging of Scriptures, by a very complete system of doctrine, and neither addition nor curtailment [in truths which she believes]; and [it consists in] reading [the Word of God] without falsification, and a lawful and diligent exposition in harmony with the Scriptures, both without danger and without blasphemy… (ibid. 4:33 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

For wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be, there will be the true Scriptures, and the true expositions, of all the true Christian traditions (The Prescription of Heretics 19 [A.D. 200]).

Origen

Seeing there are many who think they hold the opinions of Christ, and yet some of these think differently from their predecessors, yet as the teaching of the Church, transmitted in orderly succession from the Apostles, and remaining in the churches to the present day, is still preserved, that alone is to be accepted as truth which differs in no respect from ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition (On First Principles Bk. 1 Preface 2 [circa A.D. 225]).

Believe in the Pope? Yes.

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).

The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).

Believe in Faith alone? No.

Clement of Rome

Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words. . . . Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith? . . . So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men. (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4 [A.D. 110]).

Theophilus of Antioch

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings, and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. He who gave the mouth for speech and formed the ears for hearing and made eyes for seeing will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things, which neither has eye seen nor ear heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man. For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries and fornications and homosexuality and avarice and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish, and in the end such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (To Autolycas 1:14 [ca. A.D. 181]).

Clement of Alexandria

When we hear, 'Your faith has saved you,' we do not understand the Lord to say simply that they will be saved who have believed in whatever manner, even if works have not followed. To begin with, it was to the Jews alone that he spoke this phrase, who had lived in accord with the law and blamelessly and who had lacked only faith in the Lord (Stromateis or Miscellanies 6:14:108:4 [post A.D. 202]).

Origen

Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

Cyprian

You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire; you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).

Believe in prayer to Saints? Yes.

Origen

But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels... as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep (On Prayer II [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius

Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ] (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian

Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Anonymous

Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins (funerary inscription near St. Sabina's in Rome [A.D. 300]).

Anonymous

Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days (ibid.).

De Maria

[arcura]

What about the guy on TV her a while back who was raised in a Christian home, baptized and all but became a Muslim terrorist?
Was he saved?

[De Maria]

John 14:16-17
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

I take it, you are equating the term "unsaved" with the term "the world". That is the only way I can make sense of your assertion that the Holy Spirit can't indwell the unsaved.

However, we don't make that equation since that equation is not in Scripture. It is your assumption.

Although many in the world are not saved, many will be saved when they repent and come to Christ. Also, some who receive the Holy Spirit, will fall and be condemned.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Really? Read also John 7:39

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

I don't see even a remote connection with the idea that the unsaved can't be indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

I cannot see how you come to that interpretation. I don't see anywhere in this passage where that is even implied. Pleaase explain how you come to that conclusion.

par·take (pär-tk)
v. par·took (-tk), par·tak·en (-tkn), par·tak·ing, pa·takes
v.intr.
1. To take or have a part or share; participate.
2. To take or be given part or portion: The guests partook of a delicious dinner.
3. To have part of the quality, nature, or character of something.
v.tr.
To take or have a part in; share in.

Heb 6 4For it is impossible

It is not possible

for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

for those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

And have believed in God and the resurrection

6If they shall fall away,

If they should reject said gift of the Holy Spirit

to renew them again unto repentance;....


to be saved

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

What about the guy on TV a while back who was raised in a Christian home, baptized and all but became a Muslim terrorist?
:confused:Was he saved?:confused:
Fred

[Akoue]

What about the guy on TV her a while back who was raised in a Christian home, baptized and all but became a Muslim terrorist?
Was he saved?

Are you thinking about John Walker Lindh? The kid who joined the Taliban? He's still alive no? And as for his salvation: We can only hope so. Right?

[Tj3]

Duplicate

[Tj3]

I take it, you are equating the term "unsaved" with the term "the world". That is the only way I can make sense of your assertion that the Holy Spirit can't indwell the unsaved.

It would be interesting who you think the world is in this context.

However, we don't make that equation since that equation is not in Scripture. It is your assumption.

You must think that this refers to Christians then:

1 John 3:13-14
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.
NKJV

No where does it say that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The reference in Hebrew refers to those who were saved and then turned away from their salvation and became unsaved. It says that they were indwelled when they were saved, but I fail to see where it says that the unsaved were indwelled.

[De Maria]

So how does it prove unsaved are indwelled with the Holy Spirit?

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,

We are enlightened by receiving the Holy Spirit, are we not?

and have tasted of the heavenly gift,

The heavenly gift is the Holy Spirit, is it not?

and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost


What does "partakers of the Holy Ghost" mean to you?

It is clear that these people were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

6If they shall fall away,

Notice the big "IF". There is no assurance of salvation here. These folks can fall away.

And if they do, they won't repent:

For it is impossible... to renew them again unto repentance

Do you know of anyone who is saved who will not repent?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

No where does it say that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The reference in Hebrew refers to those who were saved and then turned away from their salvation and became unsaved. It says that they were indwelled when they were saved, but I fail to see where it says that the unsaved were indwelled.

When they were saved?

Obviously, their salvation was an illusion since they were not really saved. So, the unsaved were indwelled of the Holy Ghost, but they rejected that indwelling.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[arcura]

Akoue ,
Right.
Let us hope so.
Fred

[Akoue]

It would be interesting who you think the world is in this context.



You must think that this refers to Christians then:

1 John 3:13-14
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you.
NKJV

No where does it say that the unsaved can be indwelled by the Holy Spirit. The reference in Hebrew refers to those who were saved and then turned away from their salvation and became unsaved. It says that they were indwelled when they were saved, but I fail to see where it says that the unsaved were indwelled.

The word "world" refers to things other than the unsaved. Jn.1.10: "He was in the world., and the world came into being through him". Kosmos is used both in 1Jn.13-14 and Jn.1.10. It doesn't appear to mean the same thing. So why contrue "world" so narrowly?

[Tj3]

What does "partakers of the Holy Ghost" mean to you?

It is clear that these people were indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

6If they shall fall away,

Notice the big "IF". There is no assurance of salvation here. These folks can fall away.

You mis-understand what assurance of salvation means. It does not mean that you cannot choose to later reject your salvation.

And if they do, they won't repent:

For it is impossible... to renew them again unto repentance

Do you know of anyone who is saved who will not repent?

Now where does it say that the unsaved are indwelled by the Holy Spirit?