[Akoue]

The De Maria business: Yeah, you're taking her point of emphasis and disregarding her other posts.

Here's what I wrote and #145: As for the thief: It looks like he DID something, he performed a work, an ergon. How does this vitiate the claim that works, along with faith, are required for salvation?

Here's what I wrote at #154: Back to the thief: Can God in his infinite mercy and power save someone who isn't baptized? Sure he can. It doesn't follow from this that we are not instructed to be baptized. He can save unbelievers, too, it he wants to. Does it follow from that fact that we shouldn't believe? Presumably not. Now, if I'm wrong about Titus and Jn. explain my error; explain to me what those verses are saying.

As for your question: I don't quite understand what you are asking. Could you please rephrase it, explaining what you mean by "indwelling"?

[Akoue]

If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc., and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Deal with those issues.

Oh, that's the question. The point that De Maria and I made earlier is that WE cannot know. All we can do is to entrust the poor soul to God's judgment and mercy. How would you answer Joe's version of the question?

Oh, are you ever goiing to set me straight on Titus and Jn 3.5? I've looked and you still haven't said anything about them.

[JoeT777]

This question shows a fundamental misconception of baptism. Baptism is the regeneration by being re-born by water and the Holy Ghost, being born again in the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God’s Kingdom. Through matter (the water) and form (the invocation of the Holy Trinity) we receive a new spiritual life, rebirth declared to Nicodemus.

The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism; 1. The baptism of water, 2. The baptism of desire, and 3. the baptism of blood. The first is a sacrament, the others being only an effect of baptism, the receipt of grace, and the remittance of sins. The latter two forms are only effective when baptism by water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism

It behoves us, then, with all our strength to steadfastly keep ourselves pure from filthy works, that we may not, like the dog returning to his vomit 2 Peter 2:22, make ourselves again the slaves of sin. For faith apart from works is dead, and so likewise are works apart from faith James 2:26 . For the true faith is attested by works.

Now we are baptized into the Holy Trinity because those things which are baptized have need of the Holy Trinity for their maintenance and continuance, and the three subsistences cannot be otherwise than present, the one with the other. For the Holy Trinity is indivisible. An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith (Book IV) CHURCH FATHERS: An Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book IV (John of Damascus)

Originally Posted by JoeT777
No. What is said [ in Scripture is that baptism is essential for redemption B][SEE ABOVE][/B]

That is not found anywhere in scripture. For example, if that were the case, we would not see those examples that you have not dealt with where people are saved prior to water baptism.

Evidence:

Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:3 ff)

JoeT

[Tj3]

The De Maria business: Yeah, you're taking her point of emphasis and disregarding her other posts.

She said what she said. If she does not believe that and said something else elsewhere, then she should come forward with a clarification.

Here's what I wrote and #145: As for the thief: It looks like he DID something, he performed a work, an ergon. How does this vitiate the claim that works, along with faith, are required for salvation?

And I responded pointing out that we are discussing baptism with respect to the thief, therefore your comment does not address that specific issue.

Here's what I wrote at #154: Back to the thief: Can God in his infinite mercy and power save someone who isn't baptized?

Then baptism is not essential for salvation. You cannot take all the cases in scripture and claim these to be exceptions. The reality is that we find fewer people in scripture baptized than those who are. Are they all exceptions?

Now, if I'm wrong about Titus and Jn. explain my error; explain to me what those verses are saying.

What about Titus and John?

As for your question: I don't quite understand what you are asking. Could you please rephrase it, explaining what you mean by "indwelling"?

You know... what happens when a person is saved according to scripture.

[Tj3]

Evidence:

Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God… Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:3 ff)

JoeT

What does it mean to be born of the water and the spirit? Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

[Tj3]

Oh, that's the question. The point that De Maria and I made earlier is that WE cannot know. All we can do is to entrust the poor soul to God's judgment and mercy.

If there is a chance of him being saved, then baptist is not essential for salvation.

How would you answer Joe's version of the question?

Already did when he first asked. Maybe you did not read that one either.

Oh, are you ever goiing to set me straight on Titus and Jn 3.5? I've looked and you still haven't said anything about them.

What about them?

[arcura]

Can anyone prove that Jesus did not ask his followers to confess their sins?
The argument that He knew their hearts does not hold water for He knows everyone's hearts now and then.
Fred

[Akoue]

"all the cases in scripture"

I count one. Acts 10 doesn't work for you for reasons that have already been canvassed. I have REPEATEDLY asked you to address Titus 3.5 and Jn.35, both of which speak to the issue of baptism. I know you saw the post because you quoted from it earlier. You constantly accuse others of dodging questions, though I have been going back and forth through this thread in order to do my best to give you honest answers to your questions. Please repay the courtesy.

And you STILL have not explained to me my errors regarding Eph.2, James 2, Rom.3, Rom.8 (there are others, but I'll leave it here, for now). You incessanetly whine that others don't read your posts or respond to your challenges, but the last several pages show that I have repeatedly asked you to explain, in a detailed way, where I have erred in reading these passages. (My readings, and explanations of them, have already been posted.)

[JoeT777]

Scripture gives us example of those who were in fact saved before they were baptized in water. That along is fatal to your argument because you claim that cannot happen.

Second, you were also asked this:

If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc., and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Deal with those issues.

You missed what I said in the description of Baptism – a salient point. The following is reprinted for your benefit.
The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism; 1. The baptism of water, 2. The baptism of desire, and 3. the baptism of blood. The first is a sacrament, the others being only an effect of baptism, the receipt of grace, and the remittance of sins. The latter two forms are only effective when baptism by water becomes a physical or moral impossibility.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism

Do you see that there are three forms of baptism?

No more what "if's" we could shake this tree till dawn and not bring out a Squirrel .

JoeT

[Tj3]

Can anyone prove that Jesus did not ask his followers to confess their sins?

That was not what was being discussed. Here is Joe's message that raise the question:

" Originally Posted by JoeT777 View Post
Sure he betrayed Christ. But, he was a disciple; to be a disciple you need to confess that you believe (have faith)."

So he referred to a confession of faith.

The argument that He knew their hearts does not hold water for He knows everyone's hearts now and then.

I don't see why you think that invalidates the position - it seems to me that it confirms what I said.

[arcura]

Akoue,
Don't hold your breath.
I don't expect it to happen because it can not be done.
Fred

[Akoue]

What does it mean to be born of the water and the spirit? Let’s look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

Explain, please, how this is not speaking about baptism.

[JoeT777]

What does it mean to be born of the water and the spirit? Let's look at it in the context of scripture:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

Note that he equates the water with the flesh, being born in the flesh, and being born again with being born in the spirit. This is not speaking about water baptism. Different topic.

No it doesn't! Being born again is to be baptized. Your explanation above is silly

JoeT

[Tj3]

"all the cases in scripture"

I count one. Acts 10 doesn't work for you for reasons that have already been canvassed.

You keep ignoring my response.

Are you saying that you believe that the Holy Spirit can indwell the unsaved?

I have REPEATEDLY asked you to address Titus 3.5 and Jn.35, both of which speak to the issue of baptism.

I responded to John 3:5 just a few messages ago.

As for Titus here is it:

Titus 3:5-8
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

You need to show me how you get water baptism from that passage.

And you STILL have not explained to me my errors regarding Eph.2, James 2, Rom.3, Rom.8 (there are others, but I'll leave it here, for now).

I don't even remember anymore what post that is from or what it is about. You seem to like repetition.

You incessanetly whine that others don't read your posts or respond to your challenges, but the last several pages show that I have repeatedly asked you to explain, in a detailed way, where I have erred in reading these passages. (My readings, and explanations of them, have already been posted.)

In almost every single case that you have raised this, when I checked, I had already addressed it. Giving you the benefit of a doubt, Ic can only assume that you skim the messages way too fast.

[Tj3]

No it doesn't! Being born again is to be baptized

JoeT

That may be your belief, but it is not in scripture.

I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

[Tj3]

You missed what I said in the description of Baptism – a salient point. The following is reprinted for your benefit.
The Church holds that there are three kinds of baptism; .....

What your denomination believes is of no consequence when discussing Biblical doctrine.

[JoeT777]

That may be your belief, but it is not in scripture.

I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

Which get us to the central question, Tj3.

HOW MANY FAITHS in CHRIST ARE THERE?

JoeT

[Tj3]

Which get us to the central question, Tj3.

HOW MANY FAITHS in CHRIST ARE THERE?[/I][/B]

JoeT

Answer my questions first -and I'd be happy to answer yours. You have been evading these questions for pages.

I am still waiting for you to explain the thief on the cross or Acts 10.

[arcura]

The thief on the cross was not in a position to be baptized with water - obviously.
So he was baptized via intent and blood. His.
With God all things are possible and if Jesus said the thief was saved he was,
The argument that he was not baptized is moot. It has no basis under the circumstances.
Fred

[Tj3]

The thief on the cross was not in a position to be baptized with water - obviously.
So he was baptized via intent and blood. His.

So water baptism is not essential for salvation.

What about Acts 10, Fred? In that case water was available, but they were saved before baptism.