[JoeT777]

hmmm? golly gee wiz joe...I didn't realize that the Lord Jesus had died on the cross and rose again BEFORE Judas killed himself. ( so your theory makes NO SENSE) FIRST of all..Judas didn't EVER believe....he was simply just one of the crowd that said...Oh yeah...i'm a "Christ follower."

Yes, it does. Think about what redemption by "faith alone" (without works) implies. All I need is to have faith right? And if I have faith for one fleeting moment in my life, I must be saved; evil can no longer touch me, and my evil deed mean nothing. Thus I can hang Christ on a tree, then myself and be assured of God’s promise of salvation, right?

Wrong!!

JoeT

[Tj3]

Two examples, Tj? I count one: The thief, which I've

addressed.

I did not see where you addressed the thief - please repost.

The other, putative, example you gave was from Acts 10. But as De

Maria and I both pointed out to you, there is no mention of Cornelius and the

others being *saved*.

And once again there was no response to the question that I asked (you seem

to consistently avoid them). The question is:

Do you believe that it is possible for a person who is unsaved to have the

indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

Also: What kind of fallacy did De Maria commit? Come on, tell me, I'm just a-dyin' to know.

Sigh! Your credibility as an expert in logic goes down another notch. Try the fallacy casual oversimplification. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). His syllogism assumed that if we just do righteous works, we are saved. That is not possible until and unless ALL sin is erased. ANY sin and any type of sin will cause us to fall. You therefore cannot simple negate the syllogism to say that if you start doing righteousness words, you are saved.

Oh, and what about the 1Jn. Passage? And where does the NT say that we are

saved by faith AND THAT WORKS DON'T MATTER? Are you going to come through on

any of this? When ar you going to explain to me how I got Eph.2, James 2,

Rom.3, Rom.8, Titus 3.5, and Jn.3.5 wrong? Come on, show me how to

understand EACH of them.

Do you EVER read my posts? That was answered long ago, and yet you keep asking. If you would take the time and read my posts when they were put up, a lot of your questions would go away.

[Tj3]

If works has nothing to do with redemption, then we can say that Judas is safe in heaven.

Really? How do you come to that conclusion?

[Tj3]

Who ever said that you have to "perfectly live the life"? No one has ever said that salvation is granted only to the sinless.

That seemed to be what was implied if you care to look back at the original exchange.

[JoeT777]

hmmm?...Judas didn't EVER believe....he was simply just one of the crowd that said...Oh yeah...i'm a "Christ follower."

How can you support this with Scripture? I've looked. Judas was counted among the disciples. Why would he follow Christ for 3 years and some odd months? You normally accuse us Catholics of inventing small dogmatic stumbling blocks for salvation. Wouldn't this be a large bolder blocking our journey of faith?

JoeT

[Tj3]

No. What is said in Scripture is that baptism is essential for redemption.

That is not found anywhere in scripture. For example, if that were the case, we would not see those examples that you have not dealt with where people are saved prior to water baptism.

I also note that you are avoiding my other question.

I'll bet that I know why!

Furthermore that the faith received must be accompanied with works. We’ve covered it several times now.

So by calling it "faith received", I take that you are conceding that works follow received faith. Is that correct?

[classyT]

Yes, it does. Think about what redemption by "faith alone" (without works) implies. All I need is to have faith right? And if I have faith for one fleeting moment in my life, I must be saved; evil can no longer touch me, and my evil deed mean nothing. Thus I can hang Christ on a tree, then myself and be assured of God's promise of salvation, right?

Wrong!!!

JoeT

Joe,

Christ hadn't died and rose again. So, NO he couldn't. Can I today? Right now I am a Christain woman who has accepted Jesus as my ONLY way to the Father. If I did the unthinkable tomorrow... i.e. killed myself... I'd stand in his presence the second I I left this earth. If I could work my way to heaven.. he didn't have to die. But PRAISE the LORD that I don't want to do that... I want to PLEASE my savior.

[Akoue]

I did not see where you addressed the thief - please repost.

.

See ##145, 154.

[Tj3]

See ##145, 154.

I just looked and unless you have a completely different 145 and 154, it is not there, nor were those posts discussing the thief.

[classyT]

How can you support this with Scripture? I've looked. Judas was counted among the disciples. Why would he follow Christ for 3 years and some odd months? You normally accuse us Catholics of inventing small dogmatic stumbling blocks for salvation. Wouldn’t this be a large bolder blocking our journey of faith?

JoeT

HOW? Because he betrayed HIM! He wasn't a true believer.. he thought Jesus was a great guy and all but when push came to shove he didn't believe he was GOD. ARe you going to tell me that a person who believes that Jesus IS GOD is going to turn around a betray him for a few cents? Uhhhh? I don't THINK so. LOL. Now if he thinks he is a pretty cool dude that can do some great things and could give him a GREAT position in his Kingdom... and he'd like to hurry that part along... why not? Peter denied him too!! But the difference was their motives AND their responses afterwards. If Judas had come and fell at the Lords feet.. then we could talk about his true beliefs. There just wasn't any.

[JoeT777]

That is not found anywhere in scripture. For example, if that were the case, we would not see those examples that you have not dealt with where people are saved prior to water baptism.

You lost me. I don't understand what you're saying.

[Akoue]

Sigh! Your credibility as an expert in logic goes down another notch. Try the fallacy casual oversimplification. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). His syllogism assumed that if we just do righteous works, we are saved. That is not possible until and unless ALL sin is erased. ANY sin and any type of sin will cause us to fall. You therefore cannot simple negate the syllogism to say that if you start doing righteousness words, you are saved.

Sigh! You haven't shown that De Maria is guilty of this, since De Maria did not claim that "if we just do righteous works, we are saved". Now THIS--what you've done--is called "attacking a strawman". She explicitly affirmed, through several successive posts, that salvation requires BOTH faith and works. So, no, your analytical skills haven't served you well here.

Also, another free lesson: You don't "negate" a syllogism. Students learn this within the first week of a course on first-order logic (usually when they learn the propositional calculus, even before quantifiers.)

[Akoue]

That seemed to be what was implied if you care to look back at the original exchange.

The view that only the perfect are saved was held by the Gnostics.

[JoeT777]

HOW? because he betrayed HIM! He wasn't a true believer..he thought Jesus was a great guy and all but when push came to shove he didn't believe he was GOD. ARe you gonna tell me that a person who believes that Jesus IS GOD is gonna turn around a betray him for a few cents? uhhhh? I don't THINK so. LOL. Now if he thinks he is a pretty cool dude that can do some great things and could give him a GREAT position in his Kingdom...and he'd like to hurry that part along...why not? Peter denied him too!!! But the difference was their motives AND their responses afterwards. If Judas had come and fell at the Lords feet..then we could talk about his true beliefs. There just wasn't any.

Sure he betrayed Christ. But, he was a disciple; to be a disciple you need to confess that you believe (have faith). Didn’t that faith save; if not, why not? Are we to believe that we are only accredited works when they are in the negative?

JoeT

[Tj3]

Sigh! You haven't shown that De Maria is guilty of this, since De Maria did not claim that "if we just do righteous works, we are saved".

Well, let's see what he did say:

De Maria said:
"Righteousness that we do not do...condemns us. Therefore, if we do works of righteousness, we are saved."

I stand by what I said.

[Tj3]

You lost me. I don't understand what you're saying.

Scripture gives us example of those who were in fact saved before they were baptized in water. That along is fatal to your argument because you claim that cannot happen.

Second, you were also asked this:

If a person had lived a depraved life, drugs, sex, robbery, etc. and was laying in the gutter and received a Holy Spirit clarity of mind, realized that the gospel that he heard as a child was his only hope, cried out to Jesus to be saved and received him as lord and saviour - and then got hit by a car in the next second, would he go to hell?

Deal with those issues.

[classyT]

Joe,

If the man believed that Jesus was GOD he would have fell at his feet and confessed. He felt guilt... but he didn't KNOW that JESUS was the one you go to.. he didn't GET IT. PETER DID. JUDAS didn't have any FAITH... he followed the crowd. We get that today in the ChURCH... they follow and do the so called "right" stuff but they are NOT saved. The don't GET IT.

[Tj3]

The view that only the perfect are saved was held by the Gnostics.

I am glad that we agree that is a heresy.

[Tj3]

Sure he betrayed Christ. But, he was a disciple; to be a disciple you need to confess that you believe (have faith). Didn't that faith save; if not, why not? Are we to believe that we are only accredited works when they are in the negative?

JoeT

Jesus did not ask them to confess. He did not need to. He knew their hearts when He first called them. I trust that you believe that Jesus is God. Judas was chosen for reasons known to God, to serve the purposes of God.

[Akoue]

Joe,

If the man believed that Jesus was GOD he would have fell at his feet and confessed. He felt guilt...but he didn't KNOW that JESUS was the one you go to..he didn't GET IT. PETER DID. JUDAS didn't have any FAITH...he followed the crowd. We get that today in the ChURCH...they follow and do the so called "right" stuff but they are NOT saved. The don't GET IT.

And where do you find Scriptural evidence for all this stuff about Judas? I can't remember ever reading anything in the Gospels about Judas's psychology. Except that he did feel remorse and so killed himself.