[Alty]

Please everyone, let's not become argumentative, I will ask that this thread be closed if that continues. Please, let's continue to respect eachothers beliefs. In order to do that we must admit that they are just beliefs, not fact.

Until you show actual proof that God exists without a doubt then you cannot claim that it is a fact that he exists. You can say that you believe God exists.

If God was a fact that everyone would believe. It's a fact that dogs exist, there's proof, no one doubts the existence of dogs. So, if there was proof of God no one would doubt His existence either. It's just common sense.

As a parent, are you saying that you NEVER punish any of your children?

Tom,

Of course I punish them, but I would never condemn them to hell for not following my wishes. Don't you see the difference?

[asking]

She was making reference to this passage:

2 Tim 2:15
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
NKJV

I am surprised that you are having such difficulty with it.

What does it mean to divide a word? I assume this is not about dividing it into syllables!

[Tj3]

Please everyone, let's not become argumentative, I will ask that this thread be closed if that continues. Please, let's continue to respect eachothers beliefs. In order to do that we must admit that they are just beliefs, not fact.

No, I will not deny the truth of my God.

Tom,

Of course I punish them, but I would never condemn them to hell for not following my wishes. Don't you see the difference?

God did not condemn anyone to hell for eternity. It was their choice. Do you know why hell exists? It was created not for men and women but for Satan and the demons:

Matt 25:41-42
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
NKJV

Why did God do this? Because Satan and his demons were deceiving men and women to reject Him and to join Satan in his path to destruction. Hell was created to punish Satan and the demons for the evikl that they were doing to mankind. Thus hell was an eternal punishment in defence of us.

What did God actually do. Condemn men and women? No!

John 3:17-20
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
NKJV

So God chose to come to earth as a man in order to die on the cross so that men, while in rebellion to Him, might yet have a way to avoid the consequences of their own decision.

[Tj3]

What does it mean to divide a word? I assume this is not about dividing it into syllables!

Not a word, but the word of God - the Bible.

It is a term that means to dissect, examine, and study.

[asking]

John 3:17-20
. . .18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed . . .[/I]

No disrespect, but this is what my ex used to say to me, that I had to accept everything he said on faith. And you know how bad at that I am. :)

Some people are designed for worship and taking things on faith, others not.

[Tj3]

No disrespect, but this is what my ex used to say to me, that I had to accept everything he said on faith. And you know how bad at that I am. :)

Some people are designed for worship and taking things on faith, others not.

So why do you reject the Bible without a thorough examine of the facts?

Christianity is not a blind faith, but a faith based on the truth.

[Alty]

I agree Asking. Accepting something on faith isn't easy, we as humans want proof.

I'm perfectly aware that my belief in God is just that, a belief. I have no proof whatsoever that he exists, so how can I fault people who choose not to believe in him?

If there was proof then of course everyone would believe. That's why I know there isn't any proof. For people to refuse God if there was proof of his existence, well that would be ridiculous.

So, until there is proof we can only claim that we believe in God, that it is faith based, not fact based.

[Tj3]

If there was proof then of course everyone would believe. That's why I know there isn't any proof. For people to refuse God if there was proof of his existence, well that would be ridiculous.

This argument is based upon a false premise. The earth is known to be round, and yet we have the flat earth society. We know that man has landed on the moon, yet check on internet and you will find thousands who think that it is a hoax. Evidence of the truth does not prevent people from rejecting the truth.

The truth is that there is evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity and yet many reject it.

[Alty]

But why reject it? Is it that hard to find? Is it that hard to understand?

I do agree that there is proof of many things that people still don't believe in. But they're all things we cannot see with our own eyes.

Unless you went to the moon, you have no real proof that man has ever landed there, you have to take others word for it.

Unless you've seen the earth from a distance and know that it's round, you have to take others words for it.

I've seen pictures of what people claim was big foot. I've never seen big foot myself, so I have to take their word for it.

So, I guess it all comes down to how much you trust the people telling your these things. How much your trust the evidence provided.

For example, the bigfoot picture. Well it's a picture, so one would think that's pretty substantial proof. But pictures can be altered. Pictures can be faked, it could be a guy in a big foot costume. So I don't have a lot of reason to believe that picture. But if I saw bigfoot for myself, well then of course I'd believe.

It's the same with God. Some people claim to have proof of his existence. But how much do you trust the source of that proof. Could the proof be faked or altered in order to make it more real?

It's hard to prove God. What is proof for some is just a big foot picture to others.

[Tj3]

But why reject it? Is it that hard to find? Is it that hard to understand?

People reject the truth for many reasons. Some refuse to even consider the evidence. Other find the truth just too hard to accept.

I do agree that there is proof of many things that people still don't believe in. But they're all things we cannot see with our own eyes.

We had a thread of over 500 messages discussing evidence for God that can be seen with your own eyes.

Unless you went to the moon, you have no real proof that man has ever landed there, you have to take others word for it.

Not true. There is evidence that can be seen from earth with the right equipment. There is a mirror on the surface intended to reflect laser beams, and that can be detected by many sites. Now, you are left with accepting that a perfect mirror appears naturally, or that man made it to the moon.

It's the same with God. Some people claim to have proof of his existence. But how much do you trust the source of that proof. Could the proof be faked or altered in order to make it more real?

The evidence that I speak of cannot be faked. Some of it is found in nature itself.

[Tj3]

An interesting related article:

Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph

[Wondergirl]

An interesting related article:

"He says that young children have faith even when they have not been taught about it by family or at school, and argues that even those raised alone on a desert island would come to believe in God."

As I said earlier, the Texas Indians believed in God, even before the Franciscan missionaries arrived. The missionaries worked with the Indians' own experience of God and expanded on that.

[Tj3]

I agree Asking. Accepting something on faith isn't easy, we as humans want proof.

I saw somewhere on the board where you said that you live near Edmonton. You should have come to our conference on Nov 15th in Lacombe. Two members of this site were speaking at the conference. You might have gotten some of your questions regarding our beliefs and the evidence for Christianity answered in person.

[asking]

If there was proof then of course everyone would believe. That's why I know there isn't any proof. For people to refuse God if there was proof of his existence, well that would be ridiculous.

So, until there is proof we can only claim that we believe in God, that it is faith based, not fact based.

This argument appeals to the romantic in me.

[Alty]

My children believe in God. In fact, if you ask my 6 year old daughter, "who made you so special" her answer will be "God did". I like to think I had a hand in it too. ;)

My children have never been to church, I've never read the bible to them, heck, I don't think they'd know what the bible is if they saw it. To them it would just be a book.

They know about God, they know about Jesus. We have two manger scenes that we put up every year for Christmas. One is very old, older than me, it belonged to my parents and of course it was passed down to me when they died. It's a very simple set, beautiful, but the paint is starting to fade, the manger itself needs a bit of repair, but I put it up with pride every year. I love that set.

The little baby jesus figure is not attached to his little bed. The bed is filled with straw and a bit of down. Every year the kids careful fluff up the down and then both of them put the figurine in it's bed. They know that Christmas is the Christian celebration of the day Jesus was born. So yes, I do teach my children about God. Is that not the same Gos as the Christian God?

I just wanted to share that. I think a lot of Christians have gotten the impression that I pray to a different God, just because I don't adhere to the bible or organized relgion.

My beliefs are not so different, the biggest difference is, I accept others beliefs, I have no need or desire to force them to see my way. I don't believe their souls are in danger if they don't believe in God. I see the person for who they are, not what they are or what they believe in.

[Tj3]

So yes, I do teach my children about God. Is that not the same Gos as the Christian God?

What is it that the know about Jesus? What do they know about the gospel? Here is what scripture says if Jesus is separate from what the Bible says:

2 John 7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV

The doctrine is the gospel given in scripture. Further, just because one uses the name of Jesus, a Jesus who does not come with the gospel is a concern. Again, what does scripture say:

2 Cor 11:1-4
11:1 Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly--and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted--you may well put up with it!
NKJV

Gal 1:6-10
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
NKJV

So scripture is clear that a Jesus who comes with a different gospel is not the same Jesus, and scripture is clear that this is not the same Jesus, not the same God.

We cannot separate God from His word.

I just wanted to share that. I think a lot of Christians have gotten the impression that I pray to a different God, just because I don't adhere to the bible or organized relgion.

Organized religion has nothing to do with it. There are two reason why I believe that you follow a different God:

1) You said that your God was a different God than my God in the last thread where we discussed this.
2) You reject the word of the God that I worship.

(for example: https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ml#post1378882 )

[Wondergirl]

Is that not the same Gos as the Christian God?....I see the person for who they are, not what they are or what they believe in.

Yup, same God! He has blessed you with the capacity for unconditional love.

[Tj3]

Yup, same God! He has blessed you with the capacity for unconditional love.

What is the standard that you are using to make the determination that that alone is how we determine who God is?

[Wondergirl]

What is the standard that you are using to make the determination that that alone is how we determine who God is?

Matt. 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

[Tj3]

Matt. 7:16 "Ye shall know them by their fruits."

First, what do you use to determine what those fruits should look like?

Note that scripture says:

2 John 7-11
7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we do not lose those things we worked for, but that we may receive a full reward. 9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
NKJV