[Tj3]

The view is, of course, that we are justified by both faith (p) and works (q). Tj3 posts passages which clearly demonstrate the necessity of faith (which he is right to do since works performed in the absence of faith lack the relevant sort of standing). But he reads them too strongly, as entailing the denial of the necessity of works. Take the simple syllogism
1. p and q.
2. p.
3.Therefore, q.

The traditional view (which is to say, the Catholic--Orthodox view) is that both faith and works are required.

That may be your tradition, but I believe what the Bible says - it is my standard.

To cite lots of evidence that faith is required simply misses the point--if the point is to refute the traditional view--since, if p and q is true, and p is true, necessarily (by modus ponens) q is true. Tj3 needs to show that an untendentious reading of, say James, expressly disallows that works have any part to play. But the "and not by faith only" makes it very difficult to see how he can get there from here.

You first error is that you omitted key facts. You cannot use one verse of scripture to counter another. All scripture is in harmony because God does not contradict Himself. Therefore there is but one right interptretation and it cannot ignore this passage and others:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Now your argument would be stronger if it was not for such strong and explicit language in scripture telling us that works bears no value for our salvation.

Since the biblical canon didn't come together until the first Ecumenical Council--we find all sorts of books which we do not now recognize to be canonical in the centuries before Nicaea (the epistles of Clement, the Sheperd of Hermas, the Didache)--it would be useful to take some fairly serious account of the ways in which those who traveled with and were instructed by Christ and the Apostles (esp. Ignatius of Antioch) understood these texts.

The canon was established before the foundations of the earth and the books of the canon known well before you suggest. Books rejected as canonical were rejected for valid reasons, and are not our standard of truth.

[Akoue]

Tj3,

It wasn't my intention to speak on behalf of any tradition, simply to point out that your response to De Maria missed its mark. It's a separate question whether you are in fact right to hold the view that you do.

I mentioned James simply because you had highlighted it yourself--taking it to advance a claim it doesn't on its face, viz. that works don't matter. That said, lest I be accused of cherry-picking, I'll attempt to clarify my earlier post: In order to falsify the claim made by Catholics and Orthodox Christians that we are justified by both faith and works you would have to show not simply that faith is required for salvation--I readily grant you that the passages you adduce show that--but that works do not also have something to do with it. This you have not shown. For this you would need a text that explicitly states that for the purposes of our salvation it simply doesn't matter how we live our lives. And there is no such text in the NT.

Your citation of Eph.2 shows not that works are irrelevant but that faith is a gift and not an achievement (it is not something I have just by virtue of doing good deeds, for example). As I said earlier, it is uncontroversial to say that there can be no salvation in the absence of faith, otherwise the virtuous pagan could be saved. The question is, what role is to be assigned to the way a person acts. And here, as I've said, you haven't nearly shown that this is irrelevant to one's salvation. Pile up all the textual support you like for the claim that faith is required: This still isn't going to show that works don't matter. (You would be on point had the claim to which you are responding been: There is no salvation without faith *or* works. But that isn't the claim.)

Moreoever, if works were of no value for the purposes of salvation then it seems almost perverse for Scripture to devote so much time to instructions regarding the way one is to live one's life, particularly in light of Paul's assertion that the parousia is imminent. After all, he appeals to the nearness of the parousia in order to motivate people to live by the standards he adumbrates. And if Paul didn't take works to be relevant, why on earth did he take the time to castigate the community at Corinth for its lax sexual practices. The view that works are irrelevant was current in the first and second centuries: It was held by gnostics, whom the Apostles repudiated.

I don't know what it means to say that the canon was established before the foundations of the earth. (I do, however, understand what it means to say that the Kingdom was establsihed before the foundations of the earth, but the canon and the kingdom are two different things.) Certainly this claim is not itself to be found in the canon. I agree that books that were deemed noncanonical were excluded for good reasons (though note that many Christians prior to Nicaea thought that Revelation was deutero-canonical). But that would seem to suggest that the bishops at Nicaea exercised good judgment. If, on the other hand, your claim is that there was an established canon prior to Nicaea, I'm afraid you are confused. Constantine called the council for two reasons, remember: To address Arianism and to codify, finally, which texts were to be included in the canon of Scripture since as of 325 no widespread agreement had yet been reached. As I mentioned, prior to Nicaea, different communities used different books, and there was quite a bit of debate in the late third and early fourth centuries regarding whether to recognize, for instance, the Didache as genuinely apostolic.

By way of an aside: Did Christ arrive in Jerusalem before the slaughter of the paschal lambs? We seem to get two, divergent, accounts.

[cogs]

...Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV
Now your argument would be stronger if it was not for such strong and explicit language in scripture telling us that works bears no value for our salvation...

I can see how someone might interpret this verse to mean that jesus, who we believe died for our sins, is the gift of god to us. Therefore we can't boast that we saved ourselves, by doing human works, because jesus already did it.
However, reading these key verses:

Eph 2:1 And you {that's us christians} [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience {those who aren't christians}:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.{what changed us?}

Eph 2:8 For by grace{that god changes us} are ye saved through faith{accepting god's will}; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God{to change us by his grace}:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast{he has changed himself}.
Eph 2:10 For we{christians} are his{God's} workmanship{changing us}, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them{god's will}.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision{unchanged} by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands{we were condemned by the law that Jesus fulfilled};

Eph 2:18 For through him{Jesus} we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded{changing} together for an habitation of God{purified temple} through the Spirit.

... we can see that it's god that begins our ongoing process of purification, leading to being saved, basically from our sinful selves, who miss the mark (err) of god. We have a living spirit that makes us alive by killing everything vain, or dead, within us. Then, we produce fruit of works based on god's will in us, directing us through his own spirit, through knowledge, wisdom, and power. This is all done through the love of god.
We cannot take away from the work of jesus, because if he would not have died and fulfilled the law, we would still be under the penalty of that law, at enmity with god.
Jesus said:
Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name{only after jesus dies}, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you{why? To change us}.

{brackets mine}

[Tj3]

For this you would need a text that explicitly states that for the purposes of our salvation it simply doesn't matter how we live our lives. And there is no such text in the NT.

The basis of the gospel explains this, again, quite explicitly. First, before one is saved, their destination is hell. It does not matter if it is one sin or billions. The destination is hell. If you deny that, I would be pleased to show you the scripture.

The fact is that before we are saved, we are slaves to sin:

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

And afterward, as Paul says above, we make ourselves bondservants to Christ who imputes righteousness to us. Indeed, when we receive Christ, ALL sin, that is ALL, is covered and replaced by Christ's righteousness:

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

And as I showed, and can show from elsewhere, works plays NO part in our salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

Note that this passage says more - that we who are in Christ Jesus are to do good works. That would be AFTER we are saved, but the verse contrast that to the fact that the good works do NOT save.

What does save us?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Note that once again, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from ALL sin. If ALL sin, then works does nothing This is consistent.

Now, your question about whether when we are saved, can we live anyway that we wish? That is a different question, because clearly we are talking about AFTER salvation has come, and how we should then live. That is a question directly answered in scripture:

Rom 5:18-6:2
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV

So, no, we should no longer live as an unsaved person after we have been saved.

Sp scripture is clear - Works play NO part in salvation, but are something that we should expect to see as evidence of salvation AFTER we are saved.

[arcura]

Whatever emotions God has in heaven we will have for we are created in His image,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Akoue]

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

This is fine, but not really to the point. Nothing is said here about faith and works. The conclusion Paul draws, indicated by the "consequently" at 5.11, is that we can expect to live again if, like Christ, we die to sin. This is not at issue.

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Here again, the passage is fine in a general way but doesn't speak to the point at issue in any obvious way. It does, at best, suggest that the salvific event par excellence does not itself expiate all our sins: We have to confess them (which is an act, something we do--an ergon, or work). In any event, it certainly doesn't support the claim that works don't matter.

And as I showed, and can show from elsewhere, works plays NO part in our salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

As I said in an earlier post, this passage does not assert the claim that, as you put it, "works play NO part in our salvation". It does claim that salvation requires grace, which is given by God and not something we ourselves create. It does, as you rightly point out, mention works in an especially prominent way. While we do not find the claim that there is no salvation apart from works, neither do we find the claim that there is salvation apart from works. In other words, then, this passage does not support your central claim. It is neutral regarding the point under consideration. Having said that, surely a fair construal of the claim that we are created for good works, which have been prepared for us, and which we ought to undertake, would take it to suggest (and only suggest) that works are integral to salvation. What "integral" means would have to be parsed very carefully, of course, and its parsing turns on the settling of the broader question whether faith alone is sufficient in the absence of works.

Note that this passage says more - that we who are in Christ Jesus are to do good works. That would be AFTER we are saved, but the verse contrast that to the fact that the good works do NOT save.

Surely no one would claim (as I've pointed out) that good works are a sufficient condition for salvation. In that sense, works do not save. The question is, are works a necessary condition for salvation. You've argued that they are not. My point remains that the evidence you have so far brought to bear doesn't vindicate your claim. (Which is not, of course, to say that you're mistaken. Only that your claim remains unsupported.)

What does save us?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Note that once again, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from ALL sin. If ALL sin, then works does nothing This is consistent.

Again, I don't see any mention of faith or works here. You are right to read the passage as claiming that it is the blood of Christ that saves us. But as 1 Jn. 1.8-9, which you cite, makes clear, Christ's death is itself not sufficient for salvation: We have to confess our sins. Talk of walking in the light can easily be construed to mean something like living the right sort of life, which would strongly suggest that works are part of the picture.

Now, your question about whether when we are saved, can we live anyway that we wish? That is a different question, because clearly we are talking about AFTER salvation has come, and how we should then live. That is a question directly answered in scripture:

Well, this isn't really my question. My point has been that your reply to De Maria has, so far, been unsuccessful. And while there may be reasons to favor your view, you haven't yet presented any clear Scriptural evidence that she is mistaken and you are correct. You have quite rightly emphasized the essential character of faith: It is a necessary condition for salvation. But there are two problems that remain: (1) You haven't given any clear indication of what you mean by "faith". (2) You haven't demonstrated that works are not also a necessary condition for slavation, in addition to faith. And, as I stated in my previous post, I don't think that you can satisfy (2)--not by virtue of any incapacity of yours, but simply because the text fails to support it. Whatever other issue you or another may have with De Maria's earlier post, there don't appear to be any reasonable grounds for rejecting the claim that works are necessary for salvation. What that means, what sort of works, etc. is itself a further and somewhat vexing question in its own right. But it is, of course, a separate matter from the present topic.

Rom 5:18-6:2
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
NKJV

This passage asserts the necessity of grace for salvation. It is neutral with regard to the present topic inasmuch as anyone would allow that faith and works require God's grace. To claim otherwise would be to embrace a rather extreme form of Pelagianism.

So, no, we should no longer live as an unsaved person after we have been saved.

I'm not sure what talk of "before" and "after" comes to here. We are, presumably concerned with what justification consists in--is it faith alone, or faith plus works. So we are, in any case, talking about those who have been saved and trying to sort out what makes the saved person saved. Unless we are talking about life after the resurrection, it's unclear to me what it means to talk about how someone lives "after" salvation.

Sp scripture is clear - Works play NO part in salvation, but are something that we should expect to see as evidence of salvation AFTER we are saved.[/QUOTE]

Here we disagree. I should think that either Scripture is unlcear or it is clear, i.e. that works do play some part in salvation. There are broad soteriologicall issues in play here, for if works don't matter, it isn't at all clear why any of us should worry overmuch about sin. If sinful acts can't damn me, why undertake the excruciating work of avoiding them?

[arcura]

Akoue,
That was a well made and thought out post.
When considering the entire bible concerning faith and works I MUST com to the conclusion that faith alone does not save and neither does works alone.
Both are needed.
There are many passages that support that.
Take for instance the one where Jesus tells us that if we do not forgive others we will not be forgiven.
Forgiving others is a work of mercy.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Rom 6:5-7
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
NKJV

This is fine, but not really to the point. Nothing is said here about faith and works. The conclusion Paul draws, indicated by the "consequently" at 5.11, is that we can expect to live again if, like Christ, we die to sin. This is not at issue.

Read what I said. You brought up a second issue and that how those who are saved should live.

1 John 1:8-9
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
NKJV

Here again, the passage is fine in a general way but doesn't speak to the point at issue in any obvious way.

How much more explicit do you need it?

And as I showed, and can show from elsewhere, works plays NO part in our salvation.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

As I said in an earlier post, this passage does not assert the claim that, as you put it, "works play NO part in our salvation".

Again, how much more explicit must it get?

Note that this passage says more - that we who are in Christ Jesus are to do good works. That would be AFTER we are saved, but the verse contrast that to the fact that the good works do NOT save.

Surely no one would claim (as I've pointed out) that good works are a sufficient condition for salvation.

Scripture is clear that it is NOT works, but the blood of Christ, and so far you have shown NOTHING from scripture that can refute that, nor how you can harmonize these explicit statements with you claims to the contrary.

What does save us?

1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
NKJV

Note that once again, it is the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from ALL sin. If ALL sin, then works does nothing This is consistent.

Again, I don't see any mention of faith or works here.

Exactly. Works play no part. And I note that you deny that verses that state explicitly that it of faith and not of works.

Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

This won't go away no matter how much you deny it. There is so much more in scripture, but if you are unwilling to accept what it explicitly says, we are not going to get anywhere:

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

But as 1 Jn. 1.8-9, which you cite, makes clear, Christ's death is itself not sufficient for salvation: We have to confess our sins.

Where does it say that Christ's blood is not sufficient? And once again, how do you harmonize this claim with the explicit passages in scripture that it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we are saved?

Now, your question about whether when we are saved, can we live anyway that we wish? That is a different question, because clearly we are talking about AFTER salvation has come, and how we should then live. That is a question directly answered in scripture:

Well, this isn't really my question.

You raised the point.

[Tj3]

When considering the entire bible conserning faith and works I MUST com to the conclusion that faith alone does not save and neither does works alone.

The Bible disagrees:

Rom 3:28-29
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
NKJV

[arcura]

Nowhere in the bible does it say "Works alone saves".
But it does say that a faith without works is dead.
That I believe.
Fred

[Tj3]

Nowhere in the bible does it say "Works alone saves".
But it does say that a faith without works is dead.
That I believe.
Fred

Right. But if a little works can pay a little bit of the price for sin, then a lot of works can pay a lot of the price for sin, so belief that works can pay anything is a denial of the gospel.

Faith without works is dead. Keep in mind what it says in the original Greek. The word for "faith" (pistis) is the same word as "faithfulness". If one truly has faith in God, then that would by necessity be evidenced by faithfulness, or works.

Faith (faithfulness) without works is dead.

Gal 2:16-17
16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
NKJV


Faith comes first.

[Akoue]

Arcura,

Many thanks for your kind words. And I'm delighted that you brought up works of mercy. I find it all too easy to forget that forgiveness isn't just an attitude, it's an act. Many thanks again.


Tj3,

Hmm. A bit testy.

I made no distinction at all between life "before" and life "after" salvation. So, no, I don't think I changed the subject on you. It's fine if you think the point relevant to my earlier reply, but I didn't then, nor do I now, see the relevance. That may be my fault. If anything, I would want to say that there is no special case, "How those who are saved are supposed to live". I would rather have thought that the point of much of the NT is that *everyone* should live the way the Scriptures instruct.

Let me try to explain why I find your reiterations of Eph.2 unhelpful. Whether you take the "it" which opens the clause at v. 8 ("it is the gift of God") to refer to "grace" or to "faith", the claim is that it is the gift of God; it is not produced by means of good works. Fine. But this is entirely different from the claim--which you mean to advance--that works don't matter at all. At best, the passage is allowing for a distinction between faith and works. It certainly doesn't say that you are saved by faith *alone*. (In fact, what it says is that without grace you can't be saved, on which I take it we agree. The "it" refers to grace, which is the topic of the paragraph in which the pericope occurs--we require grace; we cannot save ourselves by our own unaided efforts.) The grace we receive is not achieved by works. I have already granted that faith is required for salvation, so the claim that we are "saved through faith" isn't a problem for me. It would be a problem for me if the passage read that we are saved through faith and that works play no part. But it doesn't say that, of course. In fact, there's a semicolon between the relevant clauses. You seem to read the passage awkwardly, as stating that we are saved through faith and "not of works". But that makes complete mush of the surface grammar. The claim is rather that grace is a gift "of God" and not "of works" (this comes out still more clearly in the Greek, inflected pronouns and all). But nobody is denying that. Who would?

As for 1 Jn.8-9, nothing whatever is said about faith vs. works (neither word appears). So, yeah, I'll need something a bit more explicit than the utter absence of the relevant distinction. So while I agree with you that each of these is making explicit claims, unfortunately they clearly aren't making the explicit claims you attribute to them. (I've indicated in each case what I take the claims in fact to be, and you haven't given me any reason to think otherwise.)

Notice that I haven't tried to refute anything, only to show that you still haven't offered a cogent argument to demonstrate your favored conclusion. As I've indicated, none of the passages to which you keep returning vitiate De Maria's claim that works do matter. On the other hand, she has provided passages which seem to favor her view, and you've yet to demonstrate that she is wrong to read them as she does.

You seem to draw a rather odd conclusion from the exchange re:1 Jn.1.7. The pericope mentions neither faith nor works. You take the fact that it fails to mention works to show that faith alone is sufficient. But, of course, since it also fails to mention faith we can conclude either that faith isn't necessary for justificatiion or that the passage simply isn't addressing the question regarding faith and works. Since the former option would be perverse, it seems reasonable to favor the second.

On Romans 3. Yes, exactly, faith, faith, faith. There is no salvation without faith. Faith is contrasted with the law. But the faith/law distinction shouldn't be conflated with the faith/works distinction. And nowhere in the passage does it say that works don't matter. So, again, I agree with you that the passage is perfectly clear and explicit: It clearly and explicitly states that in Christ there is salvation apart from the Law, that we all require the redemption he offers, a redemption that is gracious and undeserved. And that it is through faith that we gain access to this grace. Where does it say: It doesn't matter what you do. Or: Faith alone, in the absence of works, provides the means by which you are saved. Etc. Of course, it doesn't say that. It doesn't even hint at that.

So it is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are saved. Apart from that sacrifice there could be no salvation. But we have to respond to the offer that has been made, that was made on the cross. This response is twofold: faith and works. If we fail to respond, well, then we aren't saved. So in that sense, the sacrifice isn't sufficient for one's salvation: If I am aware that the sacrifice was made but repudiate it, or reject it, or deny Christ, etc. then I won't be saved--even though Christ already died. I'm certainly not making the assertion that Christ's death and resurrection was somehow inadequate to save fallen humanity, but rather that I cannot be saved simply by virtue of the fact that Christ died and has risen. I have to respond to that reality.

[Akoue]

Note: Works *of the law*. We aren't obligated to follow the strictures laid down in the Torah. From this it doesn't follow that it doesn't matter what you do. I am justified, if I'm justified, apart from the law--I don't have to be Jewish in order to be Christian. This isn't nearly as strong a claim as Tj3 suggests (to wit, it is not the claim that faith alone, in the absence of works of the right sorts, justifies).

[Tj3]

I made no distinction at all between life "before" and life "after" salvation.

Precisely. But the Bible did. That is what I said in my first response. That is one of your key errors.

Let me try to explain why I find your reiterations of Eph.2 unhelpful. Whether you take the "it" which opens the clause at v. 8 ("it is the gift of God") to refer to "grace" or to "faith", the claim is that it is the gift of God;

Let's see what it says:

Eph 2:7-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

The context is clear. Read the whole of the wider context. It is clear.

it is not produced by means of good works. Fine. But this is entirely different from the claim--which you mean to advance--that works don't matter at all.

Please take the time to actually read what I posted. No one, including myself said that works do not matter. It is just that, as scripture says, they play absolutely no part in our salvation.

As for 1 Jn.8-9, nothing whatever is said about faith vs. works (neither word appears).

If ALL righteouness comes through Christ, NONE comes through us.

Notice that I haven't tried to refute anything,

More to the point, in most cases you have not actually addressed the points that have been raised.

On Romans 3. Yes, exactly, faith, faith, faith. There is no salvation without faith.

This is what I mean - you missed what it said - or maybe ignored.

Rom 3:21-26
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom [u]God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith[/U], to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
NKJV

Where do we find works in here? As I pointed out to Fred:

Rom 3:28-29
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.
NKJV

All you are doing is just denying over and over but as of yet, you have failed to show any scriptural justification for your argument. Just denying the obvious may get you the cheerleaders like fred, but it does not win you any real points.

So it is only through Christ's sacrifice that we are saved. Apart from that sacrifice there could be no salvation.

That alone ends the discussion because that tells us that His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added.

If we fail to respond, well, then we aren't saved. So in that sense, the sacrifice isn't sufficient for one's salvation:

That argument holds no water. It is a word game. If someone gives you a gift at Christmas, when you receive it, is that work?

[arcura]

Akoue,
Well said.
Well done.
Fred

[Akoue]

Tj3,

Certainly the NT does talk about the restoration of the inner man. Fine. But of course this again is a separate matter from the question whether works are required for salvation. This is why I didn't bring it up. That you did suggested to me that you might be a bit confused, that you may be conflating discussions which address different issues. Rather than hurling around a bunch of different passages, perhaps you could take just one or two and really unpack them rigorously.

I took it to be blazingly obvious that when I have employed the locution "works don't matter" I meant this to be shorthand for "works aren't relevant for the purposes of salvation". I took this to be obvious both because I have used the two locutions in apposition and because the topic is... whether works are necessary for salvation. Your claim--sometimes in caps--has been that they are not.

All righteousness comes through Christ. Right. But where does justification come from? What justifies me? Christ. Well, then what about faith? If your latest gloss on 1 Jn. Is that all that matters is Christ's sacrifice, then does faith not matter either? (In the sense of "matter" adumbrated above, just to be clear.) If I am saved just by virtue of the fact that Christ died, then I must not need faith in order to be saved. But surely you can't mean to say that. Though you flirt with it when you write that "His sacrifice is sufficient. Nothing more can be or needs to be added." Nothing? Nothing at all? Not even faith? Have you jettisoned your original position?

We've disagreed, that's certain, but it's difficult for me to find credible your claim that I've refused to address the content of your posts. I have, in fact, taken them point by point. (Here I am, doing it again!) Of course, I've disagreed with them point by point--but that just shows that I've addressed them, since I couldn't otherwise disagree. Can you explain what you take my errors to be without simply quoting the same couple of passages--which I've already addressed repeatedly--and then saying, "See. It says what I said it says." That might be more helpful.

[Tj3]

Tj3,

Certainly the NT does talk about the restoration of the inner man. Fine. But of course this again is a separate matter from the question whether works are required for salvation.

Exactly my point. The references that you gave earlier for works referred to works after salvation. I am glad to see that the confusion resulting from your statement about "works did not matter" has been cleared up.

All righteousness comes through Christ. Right. But where does justification come from?

First, why don't you tell us how you are using the word justification in this context, and specifically the distinction that you are making between it and salvation, so that we make sure that we are discussing the same thing.

[elizhuie]

Wow, you guys are way ahead. Good reading. I was just worrying about ME,, again. Why me.. poor me... look at me... Hmmmm Funny, when I had a family and wealth, thought I was so poor and alone. Now, I am reading about to think of others first.Cool!!

[Akoue]

Tj3,

To take your second point/question/invitation first: I cannot be righteous (dikaion) unless I am justified by Christ, and this cannot happen in the absence of faith. Righteousness requires justification, and these cannot occur in the absence of grace. Again, I cannot, as it were, win them for myself all by myself. This is why it would be a mistake for anyone to suppose that works are sufficient without faith (as I've said many times). To go beyond this would, at the present time, be infelicitous for the reason that the broader soteriological questions regarding the precise relations that obtain among justification, righteousness, and salvation would divert us from the present topic. I'm not trying to be coy here: I'd be more than happy to wade into them, just perhaps on a different thread, since there is still the question regarding the necessity of works.

Now to your first remark: Notice that I have given no references. I have, instead, made it a point to work strictly with passages that you have adduced, this in the interests of charity. Again, my point throughout has been simply that you have failed to build a credible case on the strength of the passages that you yourself find most amenable to your view. So no, it isn't the case, as you say, that the "references that you gave earlier for works referred to works after salvation". While it's true that the NT addresses the restoration of the inner man, you haven't at all shown that works are relevant to this AND NOT to one's salvation. Your claim has been that works are not necessary for salvation; you've cited passages which you take to support this claim; and I have shown in each case that you have misunderstood those passages--or perhaps just misapplied them. This is sufficient to show that you have failed to refute De Maria. This means that the burden of proof rests with you, to show me that you have got those passages right despite my objections to your rather quixotic interpretations, or, failing that, to adduce some further Scriptural evidence to support your thesis. Now my suggestion--which you are, of course, perfectly free to disregard--is that you take one or two passages and unpack them in a rigorous manner in order to demonstrate that I have misread them--this, in preference to your earlier approach of ferreting out lots of passages that are off-topic (e.g. the discussion in Romans of our freedom from the dictates laid down in the Pentateuch).

This is, as I say, just a suggestion. But I make it in the interests of charity, since the approach you have pursued to this point hasn't served your interests. I don't envy you that task you have set for yourself: To deny the necessity of faith and works, taken together, is to hold that every biblical scholar from the first century through the fifteenth century got it terribly wrong--with the exception of the gnostics. This isn't to say that they are right and you are wrong, only that you have to climb a very steep hill. I wish you luck and I look forward to having my mind changed. (After all, if I'm wrong it profits me nothing, so I encourage you to show that you are right.)

[De Maria]

Sure it does. For example:

2 Tim 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

That doesn't say that all you need is Scripture.

Lets break it down.

14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned

"You must". You have to, it is imperative.

What is imperative? That you continue doing what you have learned.

From Scripture? No. Read on.

and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

From the example of those who taught you. In Timothy's case, St. Paul was his teacher. As were his parents.

15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures,

If St. Timothy knew the Holy Scriptures from childhood, then it is probably his parents who taught him them.

which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

And the don't save you. But they "are able" or "are capable" of making you wise. And you can use this wisdom to be saved through faith in Jesus Christ.

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,

Note the word "all". The word "all" is not equivalent to "only". All Scripture is inspired of God, that is Catholic teaching. But Scripture is not the only thing inspired of God. So are we. Everyone of us may be inspired of God at any time.

and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Note also, that Scripture is "profitable" for doctrine. Not NECESSARY. In fact, this verse describes Scripture as a tool for teaching doctrine, for reproof, correction. So, by definition, teaching is also profitable for doctrine.

It is speaking of sound doctrine and growing in the truth of the Lord.

It sure is. But it is speaking about TEACHING sound doctrine. That is the Catholic model. In obedience to Christ's command, the Church teaches Jesus' gospel.

Context is so important:

Agreed.

Rom 2:4-16
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Now notice that it DOES NOT say that it is their good works that give them eternal life, but rather it is their focus. The remainder of the context with make this explicitly clear.

It sure does say that God will give eternal life to those who persevere in good works. Read it again:

...the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

That is explicit.

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,

Thanks for quoting that. Not only will God reward men for their good works. But He will punish men for their evil deeds. He repeats that in the next verse:

9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil,

Punishment for evil deeds.

of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

And this is universal.

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good,

Again, reward for good deeds.

to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

This is universal.

11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;

Doers of the law are justified.

14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV[/I]

And the gentiles who have not the law are judged by the things they DO in the law written in their hearts.

What is the gospel by which men are judged?

The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Lets see how Jesus sums it up:

Matthew 19:17And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Lets look at another summation by Jesus Christ, just to make sure we've understood Him:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Cor 15:1-6
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
NKJV

No works driven gospel there.

First, our works are driven by faith. We believe and we act upon that belief.
James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Second, if you had read the entire chapter of 1 Cor 15 to verse 58, you would have seen that St. Paul teaches us to labour for Christ.

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


Finally, St. James teaches that our works round out our faith.

James 2:22
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

First, the immediate context says that your private interpretation is wrong:

No, it proves my interpretation, which is the Church's interpretation.

James 2:23-24
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
NKJV

Note - Abraham's righteousness came solely through belief in God. Indeed your private interpretation would make God a liar, because He says:

Read it again:
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

Notice that the salvation is through faith and NOT OF WORKS. Because if it were of works, then we could boast of we have done. The works are a matter of glory to God which justifies the fact that we are saved because therough the works we demonstrate our faithfulness to God.

First of all, faith is itself a work:
John 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Second, you've misunderstood St. Paul.
8 For by grace you have been saved

We are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ did not need to die for our sins. God did not need to sacrifice His only begotten Son for our salvation.

That is pure gift.

through faith

If we believe in Him and believing Him, obey Him.

and NOT OF WORKS.

Nothing which we did or could do is sufficient for God to send His only begotten Son to save us from our sins. We simply do not have the capacity.

it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

This is pure gift. God didn't send His Son to save us because of our faith nor because of our sacrifices. But because of our lack of faith, to give us an example to follow in His footsteps.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

And believing in Him, we must obey and walk in the good works which God set out for our obedience. If we do not walk in them, we are not saved.

Salvation is a result of good works:

Matt 25

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

[snip for brevity]

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I missed where it said that these works gave them salvation. I see where the works are evidence of their salvation, but perhaps you can show me where it says that they were saved because of works.

Ye snipped it out:
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


Come to me you who are blessed of God BECAUSE...

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

When I was hungry you fed me, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, when I was a stranger you took me in...

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

When I was naked you clothed me, sick and you visited me, in prison and you came to me...

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

But Jesus, when did we do these things?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

When you did it to the least of my people, you did it unto me, therefore you are saved.

....46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Sincerely,

De Maria