[arcura]

Sunday 34th in Ordinary Time: Christ the King (A)

Today's Gospel (Mt 25:31-46): Jesus said to his disciples, «When the Son of Man comes in his glory with all his angels, He will sit on the throne of his Glory. All the nations will be brought before him, and as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, so will He do with them, placing the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

»The King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, blessed of my Father! Take possession of the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning of the world. For I was hungry and you fed me, I was thirsty and you gave me drink. I was a stranger and you welcomed me into your house. I was naked and you clothed me. I was sick and you visited me. I was in prison and you came to see me’. Then the good people will ask him: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and give you food; thirsty and give you drink, or a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to see you?’. The King will answer, ‘Truly, I say to you: whenever you did this to these little ones who are my brothers and sisters, you did it to me’.

»Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go, cursed people, out of my sight into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you did not give me anything to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink; I was a stranger and you did not welcome me into your house; I was naked and you did not clothe me; I was sick and in prison and you did not visit me’. They, too, will ask: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, thirsty, naked or a stranger, sick or in prison, and did not help you?’. The King will answer them: ‘Truly, I say to you: whatever you did not do for one of these little ones, you did not do for me’. And these will go into eternal punishment, but the just to eternal life».
In the above passage Jesus tells us what to expect if we do or do not do what He expects us to do.
;)So how will you be Judged by Christ the King?;)
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred

[revdrgade]

I have a place on the right. Though sometimes I am a bit "sheepish" because I think of all those in prison or naked that I didn't minister to.

But lest anyone get a guilty conscience over such matters. Consider: Which naked person did Jesus clothe or did Jesus ever visit His cousin John the Baptist in prison?

Jesus was just telling His disciples (us) to minister to those who we know we are to minister to. (Let those who walk in the Spirit understand)
Making "feeding the whole world" a law which all His followers must follow to avoid eternal punishment is NOT what He is saying.

[arcura]

revdrgade,
You have made some good points...
But... all that Jesus did and said id NOT in the bible. So the bible tells us.
Jesus expects us to be kind and caring as he was I do believe.
They are good works that are expected of Christians,
They help prove our faith.
Yes others that are not Christian do such good works but that alone does not get them into heaven.
But I keep in mind that all good originates from the one true God who is good.
The Salvation Army bell ringers this time of year give people of all faiths (or of no faith) an opportunity to help others without knowing who the money goes to to help other than knowing that it does go to help, feed, shelter, and clothe the poor.
Thanks for your answer,
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

But... all that Jesus did and said id NOT in the bible. So the bible tells us.

It also says that all that we need to know is in the Bible and that we are not go beyond what is written.

Yes others that are not Christian do such good works but that alone does not get them into heaven.

Good point! Goods works play no part in salvation, but are to be expected as a result of salvation.

[cogs]

I'm not sure if this is god's perspective, but it stands to reason that if one person helps, it's only a little. If all helped, there would be no lacking, or poor.

Mat 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.

I think this attitude that we're putting our 'drop in the bucket', so it will make a sea of blessing, is the motivation people should use.

[Tj3]

It is important to realize that there are two different judgments.

One is for those who have not received Christ as Saviour and they will will be found guilty to spend eternity in the lake of fire, because it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved.

The other is for those who are saved. There is no doubt regarding their salvation because it is Christ's righteousness that will get them into heaven, not any works or merit of their own. But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service. Ultimately, these crowns will once again not bring honour to us, but scripture records that we will throw them at the feet of Christ to glorify and honour Him.

[arcura]

Gogs,
I agree with you on this.
Fred

[revdrgade]

It is important to realize that there are two different judgments.

One is for those who have not received Christ as Saviour and they will will be found guilty to spend eternity in the lake of fire, because it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved.

The other is for those who are saved. There is no doubt regarding their salvation because it is Christ's righteousness that will get them into heaven, not any works or merit of their own. But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service. Ultimately, these crowns will once again not bring honour to us, but scripture records that we will throw them at the feet of Christ to glorify and honour Him.

You make a very needed distinction on who is doing the "works"... and for bringing up the "crowns" which have been promised. I've never fully understood those crown because my finite mind can't fathom how we, the ransomed of the Lord, will have His PERFECTION plus something more than perfection.

[arcura]

revdrgade,
I believe that we will be judged as the bible says; for our faith and our works.
From the NJB 1 Cor 3: 10. By the grace of God which was given to me, I laid the foundations like a trained master-builder, and someone else is building on them. Now each one must be careful how he does the building.
11. For nobody can lay down any other foundation than the one which is there already, namely Jesus Christ.
12. On this foundation, different people may build in gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay or straw
13. But each person's handiwork will be shown for what it is. The Day which dawns in fire will make it clear and the fire itself will test the quality of each person's work.
14. The one whose work stands up to it will be given his wages;
15. The one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

revdrgade,
I believe that we will be judged as the bible says; for our faith and our works.
From the NJB 1 Cor 3: 10. By the grace of God which was given to me, I laid the foundations like a trained master-builder, and someone else is building on them. Now each one must be careful how he does the building.
11. For nobody can lay down any other foundation than the one which is there already, namely Jesus Christ.
12. On this foundation, different people may build in gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay or straw
13. but each person's handiwork will be shown for what it is. The Day which dawns in fire will make it clear and the fire itself will test the quality of each person's work.
14. The one whose work stands up to it will be given his wages;
15. the one whose work is burnt down will suffer the loss of it, though he himself will be saved; he will be saved as someone might expect to be saved from a fire.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Did you notice what this passage says?

1 Cor 3:10-16
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. 11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
NKJV

Note that when it speaks of the foundation being upon those things which do not burn, it does not refer to salvation, nor whether this adds to the salvation of the person. Indeed in verse 14 it says that if the works survive, the person receives a reward, which agrees wityh what scripture says about those who receive crowns for that which is done for Christ.

Salvation is only mentioned when it speaks of the persons works not being for Christ, and being burned up - in which case the saved nonetheless, even though their works did not survive.

Salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour alone. It is not through our works.

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

[classyT]

It is important to realize that there are two different judgments.

One is for those who have not received Christ as Saviour and they will will be found guilty to spend eternity in the lake of fire, because it is only through Christ's sacrifice on the cross that we can be saved.

The other is for those who are saved. There is no doubt regarding their salvation because it is Christ's righteousness that will get them into heaven, not any works or merit of their own. But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service. Ultimately, these crowns will once again not bring honour to us, but scripture records that we will throw them at the feet of Christ to glorify and honour Him.

This is EXACTLY what the Word teaches. There will be the Judgement seat of Christ... That is for the saved and then the Great white throne judgement.. for all of those without Christ. Tj3, out of curiosity, what do you think the Judgement seat of Christ will be like? Will we be mortified if we have led a terrible Christian life? My pastor seems to think so. Or will this be more about our Lord and less about us? We will give the Glory to him anyway. I am curious as to what you think concerning the beama seat. Will those that have lived carnel lives be scared or embarrassed and ashamed. The bible says there will be tears. I don't know what to make of it.

[De Maria]

It also says that all that we need to know is in the Bible

No it doesn't.

and that we are not go beyond what is written.

Beyond what is written about the matter in 1 Corinthians.

Good point! Goods works play no part in salvation,

Sure they do:

Romans 2

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

but are to be expected as a result of salvation.

Salvation is a result of good works:

Matt 25

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? Or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? Or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.


Sincerely,

De Maria

[Tj3]

No it doesn't.

Sure it does. For example:

2 Tim 3:14-17
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV

Beyond what is written about the matter in 1 Corinthians.

It is speaking of sound doctrine and growing in the truth of the Lord.

Sure they do:

Romans 2
6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Context is so important:

Rom 2:4-16
5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Now notice that it DOES NOT say that it is their good works that give them eternal life, but rather it is their focus. The remainder of the context with make this explicitly clear.

8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13(for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
NKJV

What is the gospel by which men are judged?

1 Cor 15:1-6
15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.
NKJV

No works driven gospel there.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

First, the immediate context says that your private interpretation is wrong:

James 2:23-24
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
NKJV

Note - Abraham's righteousness came solely through belief in God. Indeed your private interpretation would make God a liar, because He says:

Eph 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
NKJV

Notice that the salvation is through faith and NOT OF WORKS. Because if it were of works, then we could boast of we have done. The works are a matter of glory to God which justifies the fact that we are saved because therough the works we demonstrate our faithfulness to God.

Salvation is a result of good works:

Matt 25

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

[snip for brevity]

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I missed where it said that these works gave them salvation. I see where the works are evidence of their salvation, but perhaps you can show me where it says that they were saved because of works.

[Tj3]

Tj3, out of curiosity, what do you think the Judgement seat of Christ will be like? Will we be mortified if we have led a terrible Christian life? My pastor seems to think so. Or will this be more about our Lord and less about us? We will give the Glory to him anyway. I am curious as to what you think concerning the beama seat. Will those that have lived carnel lives be scared or embarrassed and ashamed. The bible says there will be tears. I don't know what to make of it.

I think that there may be some embarrassment, but I think that seeing God's glory will make that a transient moment. Also note that what scripture says about those tears:

Rev 21:4-5
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
NKJV

I think that this is what will be most important and will outshine everything else.

[classyT]

I think that there may be some embarrassment, but I think that seeing God's glory will make that a transient moment. Also note that what scripture says about those tears:

Rev 21:4-5
4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
NKJV

I think that this is what will be most important and will outshine everything else.

well, here is my thought to that and why I get confused. We will have the MIND of christ.. completely. We will THINK exactly like he does. So how can we be embarrassed or ashamed .I personally think or perhaps the word should be HOPE, those emotions won't be in heaven. Course that is because I don't WANT to believe we will be ashamed and embarrassed. I have been saved for MANY years... I got saved when I was so young that I don't remember ( the Lord does) and now I am 47. I have spent so many many years being an IDIOT with a few smatterings of real Christianity. I don't want to revisit my stupidity and sin. Certainly Satan throws it up in my life plenty today. I hear preachers say.. it won't be a matter of SIN and yet they say you can't live in sin and expect NOT to cry and the Judgement seat of Christ. I have heard them suggest that it won't be about the sin BEFORE we were saved. ( I don't see how it could be about any sin ) I guess I can understand regrets at the Judgement seat.. the Lord showing us How we COULD have done things... that would bring tears. I don't know... all I know is that instead of wanting the Judgement seat to come... I feel dread. AND this is the worse part... instead of making me want to do things so much better now.. I think what is the use? Most of what my life has been about is selfish stuff. I don't know... guess I am rambling. But like I said.. I have a good 42 years of watching my life unfold and wishing I'd had done it different. Anyway, I don't think we are to dread the beama seat and I do. I fear I WILL be crying, I won't get any crowns AND the fire department best be called... because when the Lord finishes... and I step into the fire so to speak... lets just so there ain't going to be much GOLD there. I will be burnt to a crisp. They better get the hose ready. Lol (actually it isn't very funny.) Oh well. Sorry.. I'm off topic.

[cogs]

I'm so glad the topic turned to this. Simply because salvation is the most important aspect in christianity.
revdrgade kicked it off with this:
"I've never fully understood those crown because my finite mind can't fathom how we, the ransomed of the Lord, will have His PERFECTION plus something more than perfection."
the keyword here is 'His'. It's certainly not our perfection. So where do we get it? From the purging fire of god's spirit within us. We don't have to wait until judgement day.
so classyT, you only have to fear what you really desire more of, god in your heart. Perfect love casts out all fear, when we understand the purging of our hearts is for our own eternal benefit. So we can trust god, that he loves us and saves us from any effect of sin.
Tj3 says, "But this judgment will be on works to determine how many crowns that they get for the work that was done in Christ's service."
even the service we give is based on what jesus does in our hearts, whether a lot, or next to nothing:

1Cor 3:14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

which brings me to my last point:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

he doesn't want people to fry in hell?

1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

the whole world's sin is paid for by jesus? No one is placed in hell's torture of unending fire?

obviously we are missing something.

[Akoue]

It seems to me that De Maria and Tj3 are talking at cross purposes. De Maria errs when she claims that salvation is the result of works--or, at least, she misrepresents Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, which hold that we are justified by faith and works. Note the logical connective, "and", and not, as Tj3 seems to suggest by his response, "or".

The view is, of course, that we are justified by both faith (p) and works (q). Tj3 posts passages which clearly demonstrate the necessity of faith (which he is right to do since works performed in the absence of faith lack the relevant sort of standing). But he reads them too strongly, as entailing the denial of the necessity of works. Take the simple syllogism
1. p and q.
2. p.
3.Therefore, q.

The traditional view (which is to say, the Catholic--Orthodox view) is that both faith and works are required. To cite lots of evidence that faith is required simply misses the point--if the point is to refute the traditional view--since, if p and q is true, and p is true, necessarily (by modus ponens) q is true. Tj3 needs to show that an untendentious reading of, say James, expressly disallows that works have any part to play. But the "and not by faith only" makes it very difficult to see how he can get there from here.

That said, it might be useful in these contexts to consider how early Christians understood faith as, e.g. distinct from mere belief. I don't have faith solely by virtue of, for instance, holding the belief that Christ died for my sins (this is a very modern conception of faith *as* belief). Faith is rather to be understood in terms of the life lived, both one's set of beliefs and the ways in which one lives the Gospel. To prise the two apart is to fall into "dipsuchia", or a divided self--which is very much to the point when we find Christ condemning the hypocrisy of the Pharisees.

Since the biblical canon didn't come together until the first Ecumenical Council--we find all sorts of books which we do not now recognize to be canonical in the centuries before Nicaea (the epistles of Clement, the Sheperd of Hermas, the Didache)--it would be useful to take some fairly serious account of the ways in which those who traveled with and were instructed by Christ and the Apostles (esp. Ignatius of Antioch) understood these texts.

[arcura]

Salvation has much to do with our sins and repentance and works one of which is faith.
How we forgive others is a great indication on how we will be forgiven so the bible instructs us.
That is why the bible tells us clearly to WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[arcura]

Akoue,
Yours is an Excellent post.
Thanks much,
Fred

[Tj3]

well, here is my thought to that and why i get confused. We will have the MIND of christ..completely. We will THINK exactly like he does. So how can we be embarrassed or ashamed .i personally think or perhpas the word should be HOPE, those emotions won't be in heaven.

You may be right. We can only speculate. What we do know is that God will wipe away all our tears. That is in eternity what matters.