[progunr]

You're missing the point - sell now and do what with your money?

Anything!

Stuff it under your mattress, buy some antique guns, spend it all on gold, ANYTHING!

At least if you sell and get out before the huge increase, even having it under your
Bed you'll be better off, wouldn't you?

[NeedKarma]

No. Read some beginner finance books.

Edit to add: actually follow your own advice and report back.

[Wondergirl]

I see who is driving. My feet are pushing the floor board!!

Let's see if your euphoria lasts past the first 6 months of his administration.

You're not even in the same vehicle!

I have no doubt he can and he will.

[Wondergirl]

Selling doom and gloom?

I think not. The doom and gloom is a reality if Obama gets his way.

If I had anything in this market, I'd sure be selling NOW before
the cap gains tax MORE THAN DOUBLES!! Perhaps as high as 20%
that has been predicted.

You really wouldn't have to be very intelligent to sell NOW.

Mr. Sourpuss has turned into Mr. Doom & Gloom.

[progunr]

No. Read some beginner finance books.

edit to add: actually go ahead and follow your own advice and report back.

I don't think a beginner finance would be useful, I think I understand fairly well.

The more Obama talks, the more the market suffers, and this is all before he even gets
Started with his plans.

So, leave your money in a falling market, and then pay the Obama double tax when you have to sell it next year after the small business that employs you goes bankrupt.

Is there really a book out there that will tell me this?

[Wondergirl]

I don't think a beginner finance would be useful, I think I understand fairly well.

The more Obama talks, the more the market suffers, and this is all before he even gets
started with his plans.

So, leave your money in a falling market, and then pay the Obama double tax when you have to sell it next year after the small business that employs you goes bankrupt.

Is there really a book out there that will tell me this?

I can't wait to read your posts in six months.

[progunr]

I can't wait to read your posts in six months.

Likewise!

[asking]

[QUOTE=J

Thus, for me, they are the same thing.[/QUOTE]

And, respectfully, if I put two petri dishes in front of you, one containing a human oocyte and one containing a human zygote, not only could you not identify which one was the "baby" you wouldn't be able to see the "baby." A cell is not a baby. There is no bright line in this problem, which is what makes it all so difficult.

[asking]

Galveston1 wrote:

The earlliest cells are a BABY. The only thing needed is TIME.

So is a person a corpse? The only thing needed is time, by your reasoning.

You are factually incorrect and should not have given me a reddie no matter how upset by what I said. Look up "baby" in the dictionary. It is not a cell.

[JBeaucaire]

And, respectfully, if I put two petri dishes in front of you, one containing a human oocyte and one containing a human zygote, not only could you not identify which one was the "baby" you wouldn't be able to see the "baby." A cell is not a baby. There is no bright line in this problem, which is what makes it all so difficult.

The difference between our arguments isn't one captured by a petri dish test. The difference is that some people on the planet choose what is best for themselves and use science and terms and calendars and "what if" stories to make it reasonable, most of all to themselves. And some people say all human life is equally precious. All of their arguments stem from trying to protect the rights of a defenseless zygote from the idea of convenience that would deny its existence.

That's the difference. Some argue that their being here on this planet now in full form and having "problems" make it OK to minimalize those who haven't finished forming. I don't allow that grandiose a perspective of myself.

As for the petri dish, I wouldn't need to be able to "eyeball" the difference to know that if one of them was zygote, and I didn't know which, my responsibility is in determining which one IS and giving it the shot at full formation all human zygotes deserve. Equally. So until then, I'd protect them both.

I'm crazy that way.

[Wondergirl]

I'm crazy that way.

But do you have the right to tell me that I have no choice in the matter?

[asking]

And some people say all human life is equally precious. All of their arguments stem from trying to protect the rights of a defenseless zygote from the idea of convenience that would deny its existence.

Then (1) why don't you defend other human cells? Why don't you defend the rights of sperm cells and oocytes?

And (2) why doesn't the prolife movement object to the fertility industry's longstanding practice of generating excess embryos that are then frozen indefinitely like little Woody Allens (in Sleeper). There are something like half a million "left over" frozen embryos. I think that's creepy. Many of their parents are grandparents now and nobody wants them except the stem cell industry. Why don't you tell these fertility clinics to stop making "babies" destined for a weird test-tube existence. When their parents die they will have to be thrown out, yet nobody objects to that. How can that be okay?

As for the petri dish, I wouldn't need to be able to "eyeball" the difference to know that if one of them was zygote, and I didn't know which, my responsibility is in determining which one IS and giving it the shot at full formation all human zygotes deserve. Equally. So until then, I'd protect them both.

I'm crazy that way.

:) I don't think you are crazy, but I think you have taken a strong intellectual position that can never really be tested in the real world.

But anyway, how far do you imagine yourself going to protect this oocyte from harm? What would you do to protect it? Just curious.

[JBeaucaire]

But do you have the right to tell me that I have no choice in the matter?

Hehe, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I can see the bristles rising behind the keyboard...

I know you keep hammering that point. Nobody here on the forum can tell anyone else "what to do"... heaven forbid. But I am consistently interested in the opposing viewpoint.

[andydall]

Lol, um... I hafta disagree with those who thought palin would have made an acceptable vice president...
The woman could barley make a speech without totally comfusing the audience and herself... she'd ramble on about things no one understood..
I have no disrespect for this woman though, I just do not see how she thought the job of vice president was acceptable for her.

[JBeaucaire]

Then (1) why don't you defend other human cells? Why don't you defend the rights of sperm cells and oocytes?

One battle at a time. Someday perhaps our culture will reach a maturity level that makes that kind of respectfulness for all life possible. For now, that's beyond the scope of our discussion. Good point, though. I'll have to keep that in mind.

And (2) why doesn't the prolife movement object to the fertility industry's longstanding practice of generating excess embryos that are then frozen indefinitely... I think that's creepy.

I do, too.

When their parents die they will have to be thrown out, yet nobody objects to that. How can that be okay?

I object to it. I agree. It isn't OK.

I think you have taken a strong intellectual position that can never really be tested in the real world.

In my life and that of my family, it has been tested. I am not offering an intellectual position only, I present to you my real-life beliefs, one's I've had to live. This is tough stuff.

Heaven forbid you misunderstand. I don't actually think this discussion will ever end with a legislative response. Our culture has to outgrow this issue. Nobody is ever going to successfully tell you or anyone else who wants an abortion they can never get one... and when it does happen, the whole battle will simply rage on.

No, this will continue until everyone decides for themselves "no, I don't need to do this." That's when it will end. Until then, we'll just keep up the discourse, OK?

But anyway, how far do you imagine yourself going to protect this oocyte from harm? What would you do to protect it? Just curious.

As I said, it's the zygotes that are potential humans. Left to their environment they would become people, so that makes them equal in my mind. Until such time that they can speak for themselves or die of natural causes, they deserve all the support and protection we give to all our children until such time as they can speak for themselves.

So, for now, I'll at least keep calmly presenting their side to those on the other side. No harm in hearing the other side, right?

[Wondergirl]

Hehe, I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but I can see the bristles rising behind the keyboard....

No hackles, no bristles. Sorry.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and have been surrounded by conservatives nearly all my life. That's their language you are using. They want to be the deciders for everyone. I hope science will someday solve this puzzle of exactly when life begins.

[JBeaucaire]

No hackles, no bristles. Sorry.

I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian home and have been surrounded by conservatives nearly all my life. That's their language you are using. They want to be the deciders for everyone. I hope science will someday solve this puzzle of exactly when life begins.

I prefer to believe science won't be needed to resolve this for us, eventually we'll all move to the 'err on the side of life" because so many of our OTHER issues culturally will be resolved, too. I know... pipe dream... a couple hundred years for that, I'm sure.

Meanwhile, we can just keep talking to people who AREN'T in those hypothetical extreme situations and see if can coax a few more lives into existence. Worth the effort, I say.

As you can tell, I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. I'm grass-rooting the position of the unborn as worth being considered. In the end, people will do what they will.

On this issue, I'm pretty consistent, but I'm not an angry arguer. Not needed. Watch how some people get really angry... tough situation.

[asking]

Yay, JB. It's a beautiful morning, and I think we've both said our peace.
Peace.

[jjwoodhull]

lol, um... i hafta disagree with those who thought palin would have made an acceptable vice president.....
the woman could barley make a speach without totally comfusing the audience and herself.... she'd ramble on about things no one understood..
i have no disrespect for this woman though, i just do not see how she thought the job of vice president was acceptable for her.

She accepted the position because she was asked to by her party. I think she was honored, as anyone would have been. She is not a stupid woman, I'm sure she knew she was in over her head.

McCain's first choice was Tom Ridge. His second choice was Joe Lieberman. The RNC nixed both of them. They wanted Palin because she was 1. A woman and 2. Conservative on social issues.

McCain and Ridge would have made a very powerful ticket and probably would have won.

[Galveston1]

She accepted the position because she was asked to by her party. I think she was honored, as anyone would have been. She is not a stupid woman, I'm sure she knew she was in over her head.

McCain's first choice was Tom Ridge. His second choice was Joe Lieberman. The RNC nixed both of them. They wanted Palin because she was 1. A woman and 2. Conservative on social issues.

McCain and Ridge would have made a very powerful ticket and probably would have won.

I disagree with your assessment. Neither Tom Ridge nor Joe Lieberman would have energized the conservative base. I don't know how many I speak for, but I seriously considered sitting this one out until Palin came on board. Conservatives are really tired of left of center politicians being touted as conservative. They are only conservative in relation to the far left. Palin is a breath of fresh air, and I hope we get to see her further involved in the political process.