[gromitt82]

To day’s Gospel is rather indoctrinating, in my opinion.

I quote:
“When the Pharisees heard how Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they came together. One of them, a teacher of the Law, tried to test him with this question, «Teacher, which is the most important commandment in the Law?». Jesus answered, «‘You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind’. This is the first and the most important of the commandments. But after this there is another one very similar to it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself’. The whole Law and the Prophets are founded on these two commandments. (Mt. 22:34-40)

Unquote:

Practically, all important religions of this world have always preached (with these and other words) the same message. Which implies that man intimately believes in the sameness of human race and in the necessity to love each other to be able to peacefully live together.

But, speaking only of Christianity, where Jesus’ message is so crystal clear, it is rather extraordinary how we can ALL so bluntly tell untruths and lie when we proudly claim how good Christians we are and how we love our Lord while at the same time showing our total indifference towards our fellow citizens in particular and towards Mankind in general.
I’m sure that the responsible parties of the economic crash we are living in right now DO piously attend the Sunday religious services of their church but have not hesitated one second to get carried away by their personal ambition and greed to accumulate more wealth even if it means to ruin and mess up the world’s economy…
That is what I call “loving myself as I hate others…”

[Credendovidis]

Dear gromitt :

As I stated before on this board : the gap between Christian "theory" and US "christian" reality (based on US capitalist thinking) seems to widen every day...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[gromitt82]

Dear gromitt :

As I stated before on this board : the gap between Christian "theory" and US "christian" reality (based on US capitalist thinking) seems to widen every day .....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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But the most extraordinary thing we should ALL be mulling over, is that, in a major or lesser degree, most of US, Christians, fall into that category of liars. We lie when we pretend to love our neighbor while we are basically interested in our own welfare! Our Christian politiciens llie when they tell us they care for the welfare and prosperity of their citizens while basically they do not give a damn! And our Christian "impresarios" and CEOs of our great multinational DO lie when they pretend to work to improve our world, while what they are improving is their own pockets...
We should ALL be ashamed to use our condition of Christians just as a shield advertising that WE ARE BETTER than those who are not.
This reminds me of the famous parable of Mark 11:15 that says:

"They came to Jerusalem, and on entering the temple area he began to drive out those selling and buying there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves."

Jesus was really furious to see how they were using the Temple for their own selfish purposes. Very much as we do, when we use our religion to hide and shelter our own
Egocentric whims...

[Moparbyfar]

This is why TRUE christians remain neutral regarding politics and war. Jesus kept well away from such matters and so do those who are his followers.
John 17:16 - "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

[gromitt82]

This is why TRUE christians remain neutral regarding politics and war. Jesus kept well away from such matters and so do those who are his followers.
John 17:16 - "They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world."

Allow me a little correction in your post. I think it should read:

This is why TRUE christians SHOULD remain neutral regarding politics and war.

FOR ,TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, AND STARTING WITH MYSELF, AND AT LEAST IN MY COUNTRY, WHICH IS SPAIN, EVEN MOST OF THE PRIESTHOOD, MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, DO GET INVOLVED IN POLITICS...

SO, ALL THAT I CAN ADD IS "MEA CULPA, MEA CULPA, MEA MAXIMA CULPA..."

[Moparbyfar]

No correction needed. To date, there are currently around 7 million of these christians who do not in ANY WAY involve themselves in politics and certainly not warfare.
Many of them have been imprisoned and also lost their lives for their stance and are often persecuted/mocked by their peers if not at school, at work or by other family members. Even so, these ones still manage to love their neighbor as themselves by their actions. It clearly IS possible then to follow Jesus example amidst a deteriorating spiritually sick society.

[gromitt82]

no corr:)ection needed. To date, there are currently around 7 million of these christians who do not in any way involve themselves in politics and certainly not warfare.
Many of them have been imprisoned and also lost their lives for their stance and and are often persecuted/mocked by their peers if not at school, at work or by other family members. Even so, these ones still manage to love their neighbor as themselves by their actions. It clearly is possible then to follow jesus example amidst a deteriorating spiritually sick society.

You are, of course, right! I am not forgetting those proto-martyrs, of which there are, thanks god, many more than 7 million. I'm thinking, of course, the same as you, of all the missions around the world and of those who sacrifice their lives to help others, like doctors without borders et el al..
But I was, basically referring, to those of us who live in the so called civilized world and are -me too- so much interested in keeping our living standards without too much thinking of others. In fact, I was speaking of all of us who, as you say, are living in a spiritually sick society...
Thanks for the clarification.:)

[Credendovidis]

... Jesus was really furious to see how they were using the Temple for their own selfish purposes. Very much as we do, when we use our religion to hide and shelter our own egocentric whims...

I agree with the thought here... Specially those who (mis)use this board with their Phariseer-like approach blaming others for their posts and (world)views, while doing themselves the same or even worse...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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[gromitt82]

I agree with the thought here ... Specially those who (mis)use this board with their Phariseer-like approach blaming others for their posts and (world)views, while doing themselves the same or even worse ....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

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This is exactly what I meant! When we criticize others we seldom start with any eventual recognition of our own mistakes...

[cogs]

One reason we don't see much love, is that not many have changed into what god is, love.
Hardly anyone is willing to give up their will for god's.
The tool to use, though, is to love god and learn to trust that it's for our own good. Really, it's for others' good as well, especially if we are all working together.

[Credendovidis]

one reason we don't see much love, is that not many have changed into what god is, love.

You mean : you BELIEVE that.
You BELIEVE that "God" is love.
Besides that : the OT clearly shows another side of this "God". No love at all. Hatred, revenge, inspiring to violence, supporting killing, maiming, slavery, war, child abuse, woman inequality, etc. etc. etc.

hardly anyone is willing to give up their will for god's.

As you BELIEVE that "God" gave us human beings free will, than why should we return that free will to "God" again ?
If you receive something, you should use that to the best of your abillities. Not return it to sender !

the tool to use, though, is to love god and learn to trust that it's for our own good. really, it's for others' good as well, especially if we are all working together.

For many to love "God" makes no sense, as there is not a single iota of evidence that "God" exists.
And even if "God" exists, why love that "God" ? I did not ask "God" to create me.
I simply feel no need to love that "God".
I do not even love my parents for "creating" me. I love them because they made me welcome, treated me to the best of their abillities, showed their love to me, and provided me everything I needed to grow into an independent human being.

:)

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[cogs]

You mean : you BELIEVE that.
You BELIEVE that "God" is love.
Besides that : the OT clearly shows another side of this "God". No love at all. Hatred, revenge, inspiring to violence, supporting killing, maiming, slavery, war, child abuse, woman inequality, etc. etc. etc...

Our 'independence' of god results in our not doing to someone what we would have done to us. Our love for ourselves will cause war and chaos with others. I trust, believe, that god wants peace, that's why he rectified our situation with him, by taking our condemnation upon himself. We have his spirit inside us, teaching us how to love. Love leads to peace with others.

[Credendovidis]

... i trust, believe, that god wants peace....

I can accept that as fair comment ! You BELIEVE that !

:)

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[cogs]

Credendo, if you had all knowledge, power, and wisdom, and decided to create humans, would you want them warring with each other?
Would you want them to love each other?
If so, why do you expect any different from god?

[Credendovidis]

Hello cogs
"if I had ... "
It's not important what I have or want.
The relevant part here is the reality ----> Does "God" exist ?

I see no OSE for that existence : you can only BELIEVE that !

:)

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[cogs]

Credendovidis, who do you call to at the moment of despair?

[gromitt82]

credendo, if you had all knowledge, power, and wisdom, and decided to create humans, would you want them warring with each other?
would you want them to love each other?
if so, why do you expect any different from god?

Our Maker DID offer us the possibility to love each other by sending Jesus to die for ALL of us.
But, at the same time our Maker had also made us free to choose our own destiny.
Jesus showed us the way to follow. If we pay no attention to Him and just do what we feel like while ignoring His message, we have no right to complain and grumble.
In a sheer exhibition of arrogant conceit and pride, we consider ourselves as the core of the Universe, while we are actually no more important than any microorganism vis a vis the known universe which we belong to.
Therefore, rather than wondering whether GOD has forsaken us perhaps we should question ourselves whether we have not given HIM up…

[gromitt82]

Hello cogs
"if I had ...."
It's not important what I have or want.
The relevant part here is the reality ----> Does "God" exist ?

I see no OSE for that existence : you can only BELIEVE that !

:)

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Believing can be tantamount to knowing. We believe there are natural forces like electricity, magnetism, gravitation or gravity because we can feel their effects and influence. But nobody has actually seen them. Science also speaks of quasars and/or dark holes, although not all scientists agree as to their true composition. But we believe in them…!
Galileo Galilee was forced to recant his theory of heliocentrism which 17th century scientists did not accept. But he believed he was right but could not actually prove it.
And in the 16th century another scientist, Michael Servetus, described pulmonary circulation which made him to be considered almost as a blasphemous. But he believed he was right though he could not prove it either at the time.
So you see, not being able to prove DOES NOT IMPLY it is not true. Perhaps a hundred years from now we shall be able to SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS. Meanwhile, I am satisfied by saying along with Galilee, but “IT EXISTS”…

[Credendovidis]

Credendovidis, who do you call to at the moment of despair?

I do not think I ever had a moment of despair in my already rather long life.
Of course also for me : at times life was very good and at other times I had my set-backs.
Just as everyone else I had times of joy and of sorrow. But despair ? No, I never had that.

My parents taught me that growing up meant also learning to deal with the positive and the negative things in life. And they were right. I expect that I can deal with anything that is thrown at me. Though - of course - I hope that all the negative issues are not comng all at once.

Theists should learn that there is no need to always lean on a claimed-to-exist deity for support - support that in reality and in the end is always coming from within yourself anyway!

:)

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[Credendovidis]

... Galileo Galilee was forced to recant his theory of heliocentrism which 17th century scientists did not accept. But he believed he was right but could not actually prove it...

GG was forced by the RCC to recant his heliocentric concept under the threat of death - the execution by the RCC of his contemporary Giordano Bruno was reason enough for GG to recant. Of course GG knew he was right !

... not being able to prove DOES NOT IMPLY it is not true.

Three times the word "not" in a sentence of 12 words? What are you trying to hide ?

Being able to OSE "prove" something DOES RESULT in that something to be "true" .

Perhaps a hundred years from now we shall be able to SCIENTIFICALLY PROVE THAT GOD EXISTS.

"God" is claimed to be non-material as if from a different and unknown dimension.
As science is based on explanation accompanied by and based on Objective Supported Evidence , religion is not interested in real proof . Religion is based on dogma's, claims, and assumptions - none supported by OSE.
Creationists use some format of pseudo-science to claim support for their beliefs.

SCIENTIFIC PROOF THAT "GOD" EXISTS WILL NEVER BE FORTHCOMING !!!

:)

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