[magprob]

Yea, I like the independent gangsta thing much better. Those Federal Gangstas really scare me. Besides, as an independent, the profit margine is higher and the tax rate much lower.

[ashley0716]

I'm all for "cutting the tax cuts" but to only cut it for those deemed to make "too much money" to hand it out to those who (and when I say this I don't speak of the handful of people that need it and are receiving it) don't want to work hard or take out a student loan or two to get a college degree, I think cutting back the tax cuts for energy research, to help underprivileged kids pay for college (i.e. more financial aid resources to aspiring students) to fund the war, and possibly increase troop pay, those guys don't make enough. That's great. The problem I have lies IN our welfare system. So many people need it and can't get or our too proud to ask and 75% of the people that get it, don't need it. I think the gov't needs to get off it's butt and start checking up on these people receiving gov't aid (i.e. drug tests, and home inspections) I personally know a person who is 22 years old, living with her crack addict boyfriend, sponging off medicaid, because she says she is too obese to work. She lives in gov't housing and her boyfriend isn't supposed to be there, with her son, and they pay 53 bucks a month for a 2 story, 3 bedroom apt and she got WIC, and gets 380 bucks a month in food stamps. Stuff like that makes me SICK. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I see Obama's tax plan as giving these kinds of people a free ride. I haven't heard ONE of the candidates say anything about tightening the checkups on people ALREADY getting this.

[ZoeMarie]

As if American's aren't lazy enough, add Barack Obama into the equation and watch this country run straight into the ground.

As if this country isn't run into the ground already. Lol.

[magprob]

"As if American's aren't lazy enough."

That's about a load of crap coming from the main stream media. Do you believe everything they tell you or are you from the segment of society that are just plain worthless to start with?

[Merris]

I personally know a person who is 22 years old, living with her crack addict bf, sponging off medicaid, because she says she is too obese to work. She lives in gov't housing and her bf isn't supposed to be there, with her son, and they pay 53 bucks a month for a 2 story, 3 bedroom apt and she got WIC, and gets 380 bucks a month in food stamps. Stuff like that makes me SICK. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, but I see Obama's tax plan as giving these kinds of people a free ride. I haven't heard ONE of the candidates say anything about tightening the checkups on people ALREADY getting this.

These tax cuts we're talking about are primarily capital gains and don't really have anything to do with the welfare program and please don't forget that this woman is still getting her check and Bush has been our president for 8 long dismal years. Obama, on the other hand, has stated that he is not for creating new social welfare programs and is for going through programs line by line to get rid of the programs that don't work while keeping the ones that do. McCain has said nothing about welfare inparticular, but rather says he just wants to get rid of earmarks and pork spending for pet projects. The problem with his solution is that a lot of the earmarks, including the funding he singled out that was given to research grizzly DNA is going to hurt all of us. He is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Grizzlies would have gone extinct if this study hadn't been conducted. I don't think any of us want that, do you?

As for entitlements, I agree that the woman you described is sponging and I think it's wrong and I completely agree that they should better research these people. But the fact remains that this woman and people like her are a drop in the bucket compared to the 85 billion in taxpayer dollars given to executives from AIG who then went to a lavish spa where they spent $200,000 for rooms, $150,000 for meals and $23,000 for the spa treatments on a weeklong retreat. That personally infuriates me a lot more than the welfare person because the amount is exponentially greater and many of these same executives have grown exponentially wealthier under Bush's tax plan while middle class income for 2007 is actually LOWER than it was in 2000. The biggest difference is that you personally see one person cheating, but the other people... well they're tucked away in a penthouse. Ya know? Out of sight out of mind.

I think the majority of people believe welfare needs to be reformed and I think Obama actually has a better chance of doing this than McCain who, if elected, will just inspire more apathy for our political system. Not to mention that Obama is an inspiration to young people and at-risk students. People need hope right now and throwing money at the problem or completely taking it away isn't the answer. If you get a chance... please watch this video. I've mentioned it here before. There is hope and change here if only we dare to embrace it.

[inthebox]

Obama

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/taxes...Plan_FINAL.pdf


1] A $1,000 “Making Work Pay” Tax Credit... This CREDIT will benefit over 15 million self employed workers and for 10
Million low-income Americans, will completely eliminate their federal income taxes


- 43 million people don't pay any federal income tax. The bottom 50% wage earners pay < 10% of all tax revenue. - In other words Obama wants to take from those who are most productive and continue to give those who don't already pay federal income tax.

IS THIS NOT INCOME REDISTRIBUTION?


2] A Refundable $4,000 American Opportunity Tax Credit

- again, who is going to be paying for this credit? Why does he not ask the universities with the biggest endowments to cut their tuition? Instead taxpayors are asked to foot the bill for exorbitant college tuitions.

3] A Universal 10% Mortgage Interest Tax Credit.

Who does this really benefit? Those with the most expensive house - or principal left on their mortgage. Certainly 10 % credit on mortgage interest on a million dollar is going to be more than on a hundred thousand dollar.

4] Eliminating Income Taxes for Seniors Making Less than $50,000.
- I agree with this at the expense of the above 3 points.

5] Expanding Retirement Savings Incentives.. . Savers Credit to match 50 percent of the first $1,000 of savings for families that earn under
$75,000. He will also make the Savers Credit fully refundable.
Who will manage this pension? Is this not like a 401? Why exlcude those over 75K / yr? I'm sure in places like LA, NY, SF 75 k/ yr is not much.

6] Health Care Tax Credits
Very non- specific? Is this towards private health insurance or credit for every health expenditure from the first dollar? WHo is going to pay for this? Is this in case VA type gov universal healthcare does not pass?



7] Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit: .
8] Increase Tax Benefits for Child Care
These I can agree with.

So half I agree with.



-----------------------------------------------


As to McCain - as SNL spoofed, he is not afraid to go against the conservative base.

----------------------------------------------

But to increasing taxes on the rich, the basic question is who worked for that money? The rich did [ or at least those that got rich and started the trust fund ;) ].

Taxes are confiscatory - the government did not earn that money. That is what the Tea Party was about.

------------------------------------------

What about in sports - why not point redistribution. If your team scores too much the referees will take away your points and give it to your opponent's team, thereby making things more "fair" - and exciting. :p:eek::rolleyes:

[tjnelson12345]

You can bring a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

Who am I talking about??

1. Democrats
2. Republicans
3. Media
4. You

Hints:
Everyone thinks he or she is right.
You can only Follow the past to predict the future.

The person who only educates partially is the one who scares me!!

The problem is always the end user. (you have a choice)

We as a nation have become a nation of whiners.

All I hear is complaints about how it effects you.

If you want to fix the system VOTE them all (all incumbents) out of office.

This is the only way to send a message.

That's my answer.
What is yours.

Quit whining and come up with solutions.

Use common sense.

[Merris]

Obama

1] A $1,000 “Making Work Pay” Tax Credit.... This CREDIT will benefit over 15 million self employed workers and for 10

I am self employed and run a small business, so this sounds great to me... just as those capital gains tax cuts sounded great to all the people who make money on stocks. Should they continue to get tax cuts while I'm taxed to death? What's your criteria for choosing? Are you implying that they are more deserving or perhaps the... "Real Americans?"

[tjnelson12345]

You can thank Clinton and Greenpan for the banking mess. CBS reports on 60 minutes.

Finally
They even called it what it is (Craps).


Merris you did not receive a check from the bailout??

Just kidding
I'm in the same boat with you and the boat is sinking.
It is becoming harder and harder for small businesses to survive.

[inthebox]

I am self employed and run a small business, so this sounds great to me... just as those capital gains tax cuts sounded great to all the people who make money on stocks. Should they continue to get tax cuts while I'm taxed to death? What's your criteria for choosing? Are you implying that they are more deserving or perhaps the... "Real Americans?"

Should someone get taxed more so the money that they paid in taxes be given to someone, in the form of credits, who makes less?

This is income redistribution.

Should points from the team in the lead be subtracted from them and then added to the team scoring less? Who earned those points?

Should we go on to grade redistribution? Should a student studying hard to make 95% [A] have 15 points taken away to be a B student with an 80%,and those 15 points be given to a D student so that they go from 60% to 75%?

Why should a team/ a student / a worker, work hard to make more points/ a better grade/ more money, when by govrnment fiat it will be taken away.

Merris look at the tax brackets - the wealthy already pay more as a percent of their income.

2007 Federal Tax Rate Schedules

Merris take a lool at the IRS tax data. The bottom 50% pay < 5% of all income tax, the top 50% pay >96% of all income taxes, as it is now.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/f...l%20charts.swf


My criteria, is one should earn what they worked for and not have the government confiscate it [ higher marginal tax rates ] and give it [ in the form of credits ] to someone who happens not to make as much money.


Would you push for a couple million more be taken from OPrah, or Bill Gates, or Paul Allen, and be given to you because you make less money?

[NeedKarma]

This is income redistribution.

All taxes are income redistribution. Do you make an issue of it every election for every candidate?

[tomder55]

Not true . Just taxes are used to fund specific government constitutionally mandated services.

[tjnelson12345]

Merris
The Bush tax cuts recind and become the old Clinton PLAN??

Merris if I give you $100 perday for lunch.
How much would you spend??

Be honest

Please repond with amount.

If anyone else wants to answer

Please do so

[NeedKarma]

Merris
The Bush tax cuts recind and become the old Clinton PLAN????

Merris if I give you $100 perday for lunch.
How much would you spend???

Be honest

Please repond with amount.

If anyone else wants to answer

Please do so

$15 for lunch and bank the rest for a rainy day.

[Merris]

Would you push for a couple million more be taken from OPrah, or Bill Gates, or Paul Allen, and be given to you because you make less money?

LOL... Oprah publicly endorsed Obama an in fact, the wealthiest man in the WORLD and the most successful investor in the world, Warren Buffet has publicly endorsed OBAMA and thinks his tax plan is better. So that leaves the question: Why aren't you? The answer is that there isn't any logical reason why... you are just grasping at straws and rejecting something that is common sense because you have some irrational loyalty to a party that is FAILING YOU and EVERYBODY ELSE ON THIS BOARD. That's why.

Edited to add:

Some of Obama's other endorsements:

Marc Andreesen (co-founder of Netscape)
William Louis-Dreyfus (billionaire investor)
George Soros (billionaire investor)
John Thompson (CEO of Symantec)
Eric Schmidt (Chariman/CEO of GOOGLE)
Indra Nooyi (CEO of Pepsi)

[tomder55]

Why doesn't Buffett just donate more if his conscience bothers him ? It's easy ;just write the damn check to the IRS!! I could drive my average tax rate down too if I reduced my salary to minimal levels and paid myself with distributions instead of a paycheck.
I'm sure he pays a team of experts tons of money to reduce his tax bill each year.


But the truth is ,and I admire him for this ;his low tax rate is in no small part due to his sheltering his money in charitable foundations like the Gates Foundation .

[Merris]

I'm sure he pays a team of experts tons of money to reduce his tax bill each year.

But the truth is ,and I admire him for this ;his low tax rate is in no small part due to his sheltering his money in charitable foundations like the Gates Foundation .

As do most of the wealthiest 1% Tom. They aren't worried... why are you? I'm glad you can commend him on donating to a charitable organization even if you make the dubious claim that it's for a tax shelter. I think he's really just a philanthropic individual and there is a certain truth that the more generous a person is, the wealthier he/she becomes. But you've hit on a great point. If you give to whatever private organization you choose you offset your taxes. You do have a choice here. You can pay taxes that go to public works that benefit our nation as a whole (sustainability, alternative energy, education, environmental protection, healthcare, defense, etc... ) or you can make private donations to whatever organization you choose and take the deduction from your taxes. So what's the problem? Is it perhaps that some people just don't want to give?

[tjnelson12345]

$15 for lunch and bank the rest for a rainy day.

Thanks for the answer NeedKarma

I cannot answer the question until Merris gives us his answer.

Still waiting Merris

NeedKarma
Make sure that bank is FDIC insured though.

Part 2 of question what if it was $25.00 How much would you spend on lunch

[tomder55]

Merris there is no virtue in charity that is imposed .

I am more than willing to give Buffett his due... in fact much more credit than most who trash "robber barons". Half the parkland I hike in on the East Coast has been property donated to the public by Rockefeller . Every public museum , or theater that I go to has plaques with the names of rich patrons who donated small fortunes to build and maintain them. Charitable foundations do great works .

But the fact is that although I commend philanthropy , much of that is done to protect estates.

Buffet is in the unique position to have a choice;a choice I do not begrudge him. If he wants to pay more income tax he can cut a check outright;or structure his income differently so he doesn't avoid the income tax.To that extend he is lying and a hypocrite.

http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

[Merris]

Merris there is no virtue in charity that is imposed .

I think this is the crux of our disagreement. I don't see healthcare, defense, money to increase soldier's pay, alternative energy development or tax breaks for millions of working class families as charity. I simply consider it an investment in the health and economic foundation of our nation as a whole. I am thinking about the nation and you are thinking about the individual. Middle class incomes are lower now than they were in 2000 before Bush took office. When the middle class isn't doing well we don't pay for services and goods and the nation as a whole suffers.

Now with that said, every presidential candidate in the past has come up with a tax plan in order to assure fairness and to boost the health of the economy as a whole and Obama's plan is no different and you can hardly fault him for putting the country first. McCain is business as usual, or business as Bush. He has offered us nothing in terms of solutions and has instead made rash decisions to benefit only himself (VP pick) that put our nation's security at risk. That alone is unforgivable.