[arcura]

Are there saints alive in heaven now?
Are you familiar with the Communion of Saints doctrine?
Do you believe in that doctrine?
If so why so.
If not why not.
Please answer the questions as asked.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

[revdrgade]

I believe that those saints who have left this temporal world are in eternity with God. But trying to merge our temporal world with the eternal world is beyond my mental grasp.

God tells us that we will all (those who have gone before and those of us still alive) meet together to be with God in the air on the same day. We are also told that we, who are still on earth, are now seated with Christ in heaven.
Eph 2:5-7
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
NIV

For such matters I cling to Ps. 131.

About the "doctrine of the Communion of the Saints", I'm not sure what you mean my that and would like to know. Please elaborate.

[Choux]

The Communion of Saints is part of the Catholic Apostles' Creed. I remember saying it when I was a child.

"I believe in......
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
and life everlasting, Amen.

Here is a small part of an article from the internet:

"The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2 — Greek Text). The damned are thus excluded from the communion of saints. The living, even if they do not belong to the body of the true Church, share in it according to the measure of their union with Christ and with the soul of the Church. St. Thomas teaches (III:8:4) that the angels, though not redeemed, enter the communion of saints because they come under Christ's power and receive of His gratia capitis."

I read a bit about the history of this dogma, and it is very interesting. I recommend those interested reading about it.

So, anyway, I don't think there are people alive "in heaven".

[arcura]

revdrgade,
Basically The Communion of Saints is that through Christ we can commune with them. That is they can hear us and like angels, they can aid us.
We can ask them to pray to God for us and to help us.
Jesus said the God is the God of the living not the dead, therefore the saints are not dead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Galveston1]

To live in love with saints above
Oh, that will be such glory!
To live below with saints we know
Well, that's another story!

[revdrgade]

revdrgade,
Basically The Communion of Saints is that through Christ we can commune with them. That is they can hear us and like angels, they can aid us.
We can ask them to pray to God for us and to help us.
Jesus said the God is the God of the living not the dead, therefore the saints are not dead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred,

Thanks for the reply. Though I do confess(agree with and say) the 3 Ecumenical creeds, my understanding of the Communion of Saints is slightly different than yours and Choux's. (The difference is not of any great consequence) So it was good to hear your doctrinal understanding.

Whenever the topic of "Time" in relationship to "Eternity" comes up I am very hesitant to state anything as if it were doctrine. I believe (my opinion is) that our finite minds cannot encompass the reality of eternity because we are so locked into straight-line temporal thought. It is even difficult to conceive of movement(action) without a movement of time towards a finite end.

1 Cor 13:12
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
NIV

[Fr_Chuck]

The Communion of Saints is part of the Catholic Apostles' Creed. I remember saying it when I was a child.

"I believe in......
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
and life everlasting, Amen.

Here is a small part of an article from the internet:

"The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption (1 Corinthians 1:2 — Greek Text). The damned are thus excluded from the communion of saints. The living, even if they do not belong to the body of the true Church, share in it according to the measure of their union with Christ and with the soul of the Church. St. Thomas teaches (III:8:4) that the angels, though not redeemed, enter the communion of saints because they come under Christ's power and receive of His gratia capitis."

I read a bit about the history of this dogma, and it is very interesting. I recommend those interested reading about it.

So, anyway, I don't think there are people alive "in heaven".

The Apostles Creed is not "Catholic" it is just the Creed of most of the Christian churches, I know the Lutheran, Anglican, ECUSA, Methodist and I am sure I am leaving more out. Recited every Sunday in many of christian churches.

If we look back at Jesus on the mound, did not Moses come and talk with Jesus? How could he do that if he was not alive in heaven.

[Galveston1]

Are there saints alive in heaven now?
Are you familiar with the Communion of Saints doctrine?
Do you believe in that doctrine?
If so why so.
If not why not.
Please answer the questions as asked.
:)Peace and kindness,:)
Fred (arcura)

Ok, now that I understand what you are talking about:

1. Yes
2. yes, now.
3. No
4. 1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(KJV)

[arcura]

Galveston1,
I agree with you that there is but one ULTIMATE mediator at the throne Of God the Father who is Jesus Christ.
BUT...
Believe it or not I am a mediator for you and others.
HOW??
Because I pray for many different people including all those I work with on the www.
I pray to Lord Jesus thus I am asking for special things for people and thus I am mediating to the ultimate mediator.
I also believe that others can do the same including the saints in heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

I believe that those saints who have left this temporal world are in eternity with God. But trying to merge our temporal world with the eternal world is beyond my mental grasp.

God tells us that we will all (those who have gone before and those of us still alive) meet together to be with God in the air on the same day. We are also told that we, who are still on earth, are now seated with Christ in heaven.
Eph 2:5-7
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
NIV

For such matters I cling to Ps. 131.

About the "doctrine of the Communion of the Saints", I'm not sure what you mean my that and would like to know. Please elaborate.

There are saints of the heavenly realm who are at the command and order of Christ. Christ is the authority over All. But there are saints refer in Psalms 132 who are the anointed, favored ones who shout for joy. (Psalms 87)
Are there saints alive in heaven now? YES
Are you familiar with the Communion of Saints doctrine? YES

Psalms 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.
Psalms 132:17 There will I make the horn of David to bud: I have ordained a lamp for mine anointed.

Horn is power to bring forth; ordained is order of command; lamp is light of the law/guidance; anointed are favorited ones/saints

refer: Anointed saints
I Kings 11:36 And unto his son will I give one tribe, that David my servant may have a light alway before me in Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen me to put my name there.

[revdrgade]

[QUOTE=sndbay;1339471]There are saints of the heavenly realm who are at the command and order of Christ. Christ is the authority over All. But there are saints refer in Psalms 132 who are the anointed, favored ones who shout for joy. (Psalms 87)
Are there saints alive in heaven now? YES

As I have said before, I don't believe we can understand the matter of eternity in contrast to our temporal life. God is the God of the living but He also talks about the death of His saints:
Ps 116:15
15 Precious in the sight of the Lord
is the death of his saints .
NIV

AND He has told us that we saints, who are still on earth are(present tense) also seated in the "Heavenly realms":
Eph 2:3-7
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
NIV

What I am saying is that sometimes God speaks of people and powers from the view of eternity and in other instances from the view of the temporal world. This is similar to the way we read of Christ according to His Divine nature and other times according to His Human nature. They are both true, they are both together, but we do not intermingle them and thereby lessen either one.

I do not understand that any passages (outside of parables) speak of the saints who have gone before us (according to our time) seeing us in our time or interacting with us:

Job 7:9-10
9 As a cloud vanishes and is gone,
so he who goes down to the grave does not return.
10 He will never come to his house again;
his place will know him no more.
NIV

Ps 6:4-5
4 Turn, O Lord, and deliver me;
save me because of your unfailing love.
5 No one remembers you when he is dead.
Who praises you from the grave ?



That is NOT to say that God does not redeem us from the grave, but only hightens that redemption for all His saints:

Ps 49:13-15
13 This is the fate of those who trust in themselves,
and of their followers, who approve their sayings.
Selah
14 Like sheep they are destined for the grave ,
and death will feed on them.
The upright will rule over them in the morning;
their forms will decay in the grave ,
far from their princely mansions.
15 But God will redeem my life from the grave ;
he will surely take me to himself.
NIV

Hos 13:14
14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave ;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave , is your destruction?
NIV

AND according to our present temporal reckoning Scripture clearly teaches that ALL the saints will meet the Lord on the same day. This will be the day when temporal time will be joined with eternal time for God's creation:

1 Thess 4:13-18

13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.
NIV

[arcura]

sndbay,
Thanks much for your answer.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Galveston1]

Galveston1,
I agree with you that there is but one ULTIMATE mediator at the throne Of God the Father who is Jesus Christ.
BUT............
Believe it or not I am a mediator for you and others.
HOW????
Because I pray for many different people including all those I work with on the www.
I pray to Lord Jesus thus I am asking for special things for people and thus I am mediating to the ultimate mediator.
I also believe that others can do the same including the saints in heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

I completely agree that we can and should pray for one another. HOWEVER, we are instructed by Jesus Himself as to how we should pray.

Matt 6:9
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
(KJV)

John 16:23
23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
(KJV)

These are typical of Jesus' teaching on prayer. Note that we are told to ask the Father directly (in Jesus' name, or by His authority) for any and all our needs. There is no scripture that I have ever read that tells us to approach the Father by any other avenue.

If you base your idea of praying to departed saints or through them on tradition, then I will just have to respectfully disagree and move on.

[arcura]

Galveston1,
I agree with what you say about prayer as Jesus Taught.
But.
I also believe that the saints can hear us and help us if we ask them to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

Note that we are told to ask the Father directly (in Jesus' name, or by His authority) for any and all our needs. There is no scripture that I have ever read that tells us to approach the Father by any other avenue.

If you base your idea of praying to departed saints or through them on tradition, then I will just have to respectfully disagree and move on.

Agree.. THE WORD has shown us our way

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

You can do nothing in prayer through saints or by following man. It will lead you astray. You can believe what Christ tells you, or allow your love for man to be above your love for God. A very dangerous trip to follow man..

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

But.
I also believe that the saints can hear us and help us if we ask them to.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Fred.. why would you put your faith in saints at all to help you? Christ is enough, Correct? To pray for help elsewhere is to be unaware of Christ being all power and all authority. Hear His voice and follow, Christ is the way... stay in HIS light..

You know me Fred, I rebuke what is not written of the flesh/bible.. (rebuke is done in love of Spiritual Truth, and in love for others.)

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[arcura]

sndbay,
Please I do not put my faith in saints as you claim.
My religious faith is in the Triune God.
But I believe in things he has created such as the universe, you and saints.
I also believe that you and saints can pray.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay,
Please I do not put my faith in saints as you claim.
My religious faith is in the Triune God.
But I believe in things he has created such as the universe, you and saints.
I also believe that you and saints can pray.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The Catholic Christians, in praying for their dead hold their belief that the departed brothers and sisters underwent a purification after death ("purgatory"). Their prayers were prayers that God would have mercy on them during this time of healing and purification. Correct? So..This indicates they feel they can play a roll in saving them in this mercy request.

And where I believe as we have discussed on another thread that we are accountable to the free will that God permitted us. So each of us are accountable to our actions. Those actions as a child of God would walk in Christ, dead to new life in baptism, has done what is expect with their sins forgiven upon repenting for those sins in the glory of Christ.

No one will see anything of death until judgement day, because the body gives up this life, and the spirit is taken to be present with God. (2 Corinthians 5:7-8)Those who follow satan will be taken and placed on a side of the gulf less pleasant then the other opposite of Abraham side (Luke 16: 19-31)

Our Father is a God of the Living... satan is of death. Thus judgement day will be the final determined time for death or eternity.

My question is in praying to a Saint, or the Virgin Mary, that indicates the direction of prayer being communication in worhship. This "praying to" would appear to indicate a worship of the Saint as if giving to the Saint or Mary what is due to God alone.

[arcura]

sndbay ,
We all can play a roll for saving people by praying for them now.
I believe that we can do the same after their bodies die.
I believe that God answers prayers.
Jesus said of the dead of body, that they were alive and that God is the God of the living not of the dead.
I believe that.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[sndbay]

sndbay ,
We all can play a roll for saving people by praying for them now.
I believe that we can do the same after their bodies die.
I believe that God answers prayers.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

The roll as a servant is to plant the seed.. You can recall that it is written. God alone reveals unto His choosing...
We play no roll in anyones salvation by prayer after their body dies. Christ alone is the authority, power, and glory in salvation.
Prayer is answered by the Holy Spirit who is with us in comfort.

three in "One"

Jesus said of the dead of body, that they were alive and that God is the God of the living not of the dead. I believe that.

Yes as I said in the previous post: No one will see anything of death until judgement day, because the body gives up this life on earth, and the spirit is taken to be present with God. (2 Corinthians 5:7-8)
I believe that.

[arcura]

sndbay,
I see what you believe.
Thanks.
I told you what I believe.
God id the God of the living no matter where they are, on this earth, in Purgatory, or in Heaven.
Peace and kindness,
Fred