[wildandblue]

Well I would say to you all, including classyt... Matthew chapter 7, don't judge another, as Jesus would say. If for instance you say "may God **** you" this is asking God to act, but if you say "**** you" you are assuming yourself equal to God and able to judge other people in His place, the same as when we might speak ill of the dead, people who have already been judged by God. So think whatever you think, but it is none of our place to tell another.

[wildandblue]

The twelve apostles were Peter, Andrew, James, John, Bartholomew, Matthew, Philip, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was replaced by Matthias Acts chapter 1.
Paul at this time was still a practicing Jew and was present for the stoning of Stephen, the first Christian martyr Acts chapter 7
It was only afterwards that Paul was converted.

[wildandblue]

I am not for any particular denomination, but Paul means that if we have divisions among ourselves we are not thinking of ourselves as all members of the one body of Christ

[classyT]

You're correct; there is no History of the Church by Eusebius in the Bible. But events did occur after the Ascension of Christ. Did all progress of mankind stop once the 73 books of the Bible were written? Was this the end of all recorded history once the Scriptures were written (the last of which was written around 90 AD.)? [Don't tell me, if God meant for man to fly we'd be born with wings.] The destruction of Jerusalem isn't discussed. Did it never happen? Nor is Hannibal mentioned in the Bible; did he never invade Rome? Nor is Hitler mentioned in the Bible; did he not kill 4 to 6 million Jews and Christians?

Eusebius recorded historical events as they related to the Church. Those events show that the Kingdom of God on earth (the Catholic Church) had a functioning hierarchy with Peter at its head. In short it existed; it existed from the ascension to at least Eusebius' time. Eusebius' history records some events surrounding the original 12 Apostles, mentions many of the written documents of that early Catholic Church, including what we know as the Bible today. So, whether or not Eusebius was right handed or not, whether he was an appointee of Constantine or not, we know that;

“… during the reign of Claudius, the all-good and gracious Providence, which watches over all things, led Peter, that strongest and greatest of the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others, to Rome against this great corrupter of life. He like a noble commander of God, clad in divine armor…proclaiming the light itself, and the word which brings salvation to souls, and preaching the kingdom of heaven.” Church History (Eusebius) 2.14.6

Thus there was an organization, it was headed by Peter commanded in divine armor spreading the light of God's Word of salvation.

Now let me ask a question. Where did your faith come from: from the Bible? And how did the Bible come to you through some 2,000 years of this so called non-biblical history? Who decided which of the Holy Scripture was to be included?

JoeT

There are 66 books. But Paul completed the Bible. That is what he said.. not me. I don't believe that anything that has been have added to the Christian church is biblical. That's all. And if I appear to be judging you, I'm NOT. I really wanted to know where catholic got their belief system.. thats all. Some of it is biblical.. some of it isn't. That is the way I see it anyway. The LORD decided what would be added. Just like he inspired the writers to write the books. And I believe he perserved his Word through men.. (i.e. the scribes)

[classyT]

I am not for any particular denomination, but Paul means that if we have divisions among ourselves we are not thinking of ourselves as all members of the one body of Christ

And I agree with you. We are all one body, I don't care what denomination. (as long as you are really saved. )

[JoeT777]

There are 66 books. But Paul completed the Bible. That is what he said.. not me.

You'll have to show me where it says Paul completed the Bible. I’m not familiar with that verse.

I don't believe that anything that has been have added to the Christian church is biblical. That's all.

What has been “added”?

and if I appear to be judging you, I'm NOT.

Judge away.

I really wanted to know where catholic got their belief system.. thats all. Some of it is biblical.. some of it isn't. That is the way I see it anyway. The LORD decided what would be added. Just like he inspired the writers to write the books. And I believe he perserved his Word through men.. (i.e. the scribes)

The simple answer is that Catholics get their commission, authority to teach, authority of sanctification, and supremacy to fix doctrine, from Christ through Peter and the Apostles as taught by their successors as evidenced in Scriptures:


The Catholic Church receives its commission directly from Christ:

• Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 28:18-20)


The Church has the Scriptural Authority to Teach:

• And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give.. . That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops. (Matt 10:7, 27)

• And he made that twelve should be with him, and that he might send them to preach. (Mk 3:14)

• And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world and preach the gospel to every creature. (Mk 16:15)


The Church has the authority of Sanctification:

• Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

• If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. (John 6:52-53)

• And taking bread, he gave thanks and brake and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me. (Luke 22:19)

• And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. (1 Cor 11:24)

• When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. (John 20:22-23)

The Church has supremacy to fix doctrine:

• Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matt 18:18)

• And sitting down, he called the twelve and saith to them: If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all and be minister of all. (Mk 9:35)


Christ obliges all to submit to the power of the Apostles.

• He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. (Matt 10:40-41)

• Amen, amen, I say to you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me: and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. (John 13:20)

• He that heareth you heareth me: and he that despiseth you despiseth me: and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me (Lk 10:16)

• And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me. That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (John 17:20)

JoeT

[Tj3]

The twelve apostles were Peter, Andrew, James, John, Bartholomew, Matthew, Philip, Thomas, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was replaced by Matthias Acts chapter 1.
Paul at this time was still a practicing Jew and was present for the stoning of Stephen, the first Christian martyr Acts chapter 7
It was only afterwards that Paul was converted.

There is no indiaction that Judas was God's choice - that is the only Apostle that no mention of God's endorsement is given to. Paul on the other hand was called by Jesus directly and called an Apostle.

And scripture says that there are only 12 Apostles.

[Tj3]

The Catholic Church receives its commission directly from Christ: [/B]

• Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning anything whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matt 28:18-20)

I see nothing about any denomination mentioned there, and this, BTW, is not establishing the authority of any manmade organization.

The Church has the Scriptural Authority to Teach:

• And going, preach, saying: The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out devils: freely have you received, freely give.. . That which I tell you in the dark, speak ye in the light: and that which you hear in the ear, preach ye upon the housetops. (Matt 10:7, 27)

Yep - again, not referring to any denomination

The Church has the authority of Sanctification:

• Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

This verse says nothing of the sort. It is the Holy Spirit who sanctifies.

The Church has supremacy to fix doctrine:

• Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matt 18:18)

• And sitting down, he called the twelve and saith to them: If any man desire to be first, he shall be the last of all and be minister of all. (Mk 9:35)

Doctrines were set in scripture. No man has the right to alter, add to, or remove from what it says. Nor, according to scripture, can any man intepret scripture, not me, not you, not the pope, no one.

Christ obliges all to submit to the power of the Apostles.

• He that receiveth you, receiveth me: and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet, shall receive the reward of a prophet: and he that receiveth a just man in the name of a just man, shall receive the reward of a just man. (Matt 10:40-41)

This passage not say that but in any case it does not matter since there are no apostles alive on earth today.

BTW, in order to properly understand what scripture says about the Church, one must first understand what "the church" is according to scripture. First and foremost it is not a denomination.

[Tj3]

I am not for any particular denomination, but Paul means that if we have divisions among ourselves we are not thinking of ourselves as all members of the one body of Christ

The verses that speak about unity do not at any time speak about denominations or organizational unity, but rather the unity that exists amongst all believers through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Tj3]

well I would say to you all, including classyt...Matthew chapter 7, don't judge another, as Jesus would say. If for instance you say "may God **** you" this is asking God to act, but if you say "**** you" you are assuming yourself equal to God and able to judge other people in His place, the same as when we might speak ill of the dead, people who have already been judged by God. So think whatever you think, but it is none of our place to tell another.

I see no one on this thread judging others, but we are commanded to judge doctrine and actions.

[classyT]

There is no indiaction that Judas was God's choice - that is the only Apostle that no mention of God's endorsement is given to. Paul on the other hand was called by Jesus directly and called an Apostle.

And scripture says that there are only 12 Apostles.

Exactly. WOW... you are pretty smart! I agree totally with that and most people don't see it that way...

[classyT]

Joet,

Colossians 1:25

Whereof I am made minister, according the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God.

That was Paul job, he fulfilled the Word of God and we are warn other places not to add to it.

[wildandblue]

Judas was a man just like any other, who heard the word of God and then chose to sin and disregard it. I'm saying Jesus while walking on earth before he was crucified, chose the 12, later he chose 72. After Judas left their company the remaining 11 chose another (Matthias) for whatever reason is not clear, maybe it had something to do with there being 12 tribes of Israel. Only sometime later was Paul even converted to Christianity. Paul himself calls these others the Pillars of the Church and the Super Apostles but he was in agreement with them and called himself an Apostle or a follower of Christ.
I like to read the New Testament like a CSI sometimes, maybe this isn't a good idea and it's easier for someone who has never read all of it before and so has no preconceived notions:
If you look at Paul or Saul's early ministry, he was walking in the footsteps of Jesus actually in most of the things he did, which could account for his tremendous success and wide popularity. It seems to this investigator that he almost thought he, Saul named after all for the first king of Israel, should have been appointed king of the Jews--his preaching, his appearance before the Jewish leaders and the Roman rulers.
And again I mention Joshua, who took over for Moses and set up a stone as a witness, just like Laban and Jacob did, and like the Israelites set up an altar in the wilderness that was different from the altar in the temple. After Peter another man and then another was set up as the witness rock.

[Tj3]

I'm saying Jesus while walking on earth before he was crucified, chose the 12,

12 were Apostles, and only 12.

later he chose 72.

These are not apostles, so it is not clear what your point is with respect to the 70 (not 72).

Luke 10:1-2
10:1 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.
NKJV

After Judas left their company the remaining 11 chose another (Matthias) for whatever reason is not clear, maybe it had something to do with there being 12 tribes of Israel.

Yes, and unlike the other Apostles, this was the only one identified who was not chosen by or endorsed by Jesus. He may have been a very good man - I don't doubt it - but scripture does not show any indiaction that this was God's choice.

Only sometime later was Paul even converted to Christianity. Paul himself calls these others the Pillars of the Church and the Super Apostles but he was in agreement with them and called himself an Apostle or a follower of Christ.

He does not say that they are pillars to the exclusion of others, Indeed the term applies to all believers:

Rev 3:12
12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. And I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God.
NKJV

As for "super Apostles", I believe that you are referring to this passage where he points out that he is their equal:

2 Cor 11:5-6
5 For I consider that I am not at all inferior to the most eminent apostles.
NKJV

It is also not clear who specifically he is referring to here.

So again, with all due respect, it is not clear what the point is that you are trying to make with these references.

[wildandblue]

Well more to the point what does classyt think. Because I'm not sure she gets this whole reformation business. They left us, we didn't somehow develop independently of them.
I also looked at Deut 1:9--18 elders of the faith
Acts 8:9--19 shows that's God's favor is given like it was to Paul, not something that is handed out to anyone
Deut 18:15--22 gift of prophecy
Paul talks about his ministry at Galatians 1:11--24, 2:1--11, Acts 11:19--26 Acts 15:1--12 here he shows that he started independently but that he met with Peter and the others and they were all in agreement.
That is quite different from, say starting up your own sect and expecting everyone else to follow you, and if they don't leaving the church and starting your own.

[Tj3]

well more to the point what does classyt think. Because I'm not sure she gets this whole reformation business. They left us, we didn't somehow develop independently of them.

Keep in mind that throughout history there have always been Christians outside of the Roman Catholic church, but for most of this timeframe (counted from the start of the Roman catholic church in 325AD) and indeed even in some countries today, one has had to be a member of the Roman catholic church or face penalties which have, at various times and places, included imprisonment or death. Forced unity does not mean that all who were members of that denomination were necessary in concert with the denomination or its leadership.

I also looked at Deut 1:9--18 elders of the faith
Acts 8:9--19 shows that's God's favor is given like it was to Paul, not something that is handed out to anyone
Deut 18:15--22 gift of prophecy
Paul talks about his ministry at Galatians 1:11--24, 2:1--11, Acts 11:19--26 Acts 15:1--12 here he shows that he started independently but that he met with Peter and the others and they were all in agreement.
That is quite different from, say starting up your own sect and expecting everyone else to follow you, and if they don't leaving the church and starting your own.

It is not clear to me how this relates to the discussion. Scripture does not mandate that we be part of a specific denomination, or that any denomination exist at all.

Please clarify.

Indeed, I would suggest that denominationalism is entirely contrary to scripture. This does not mean that denominations are wrong, but when we make the denomination the master rather than a tool or ministry, that is wrong.

[wildandblue]

Well you or maybe I seem to be hung up on Paul's title somehow, whether he is an Apostle or the 12th Apostle.
Like it or not there exist denominations today and we both agree this is not what Christ wants or intended

[Tj3]

well you or maybe I seem to be hung up on Paul's title somehow, whether he is an Apostle or the 12th Apostle.

The fact is that there were ONLY 12 true Apostles (FULL STOP), therefore there is no question as to whether he is one of the 12 if he is an Apostle. If he is an Apostle, he is the 12th.

Rev 21:14-15
14 Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
NKJV

Like it or not there exist denominations today and we both agree this is not what Christ wants or intended

Agreed. What is important is that we submit ourselves to God and His word and not to any denomination.

[insomniaticmeat]

There are hundreds of diffrences but so much more similarities, I know you didn't mean to cause offence but where I am from(was from moved due to violence) belfast northern ireland is ripped apart by this debate.. my opinion is it doesent matter there are so many religeons out there that christians and catholics should be happy that another religeon has so many similarities because so many other people have so many other beliefs.

[insomniaticmeat]

OK I've been thinking some more and have more to add. First there was catholicism, and due to people not liking some of the abuses by the churhch the great schism happened , orthodox and catholicism, then in germany luther started the papal bull against the pope due to his abuses of power, basically peoples interpretations of the bible are what started christianity that's the diffrence two people read the same book and two difrent meaanings come from the same words there is no way to solve this argument we juts have to agree to disagree