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teekayn · Oct 12, 2008, 11:43 AM

Hi,
I have read some info on toilet flanges but wanted to be speciic toward my situation.

It appears after removing my toilet (due to leak) the flange stayed attached to the toilet leaving behind a pipe that is flush with the floor. The top of the remaining pipe seems to be deformed a little and it is metallic leading me to assume it is lead. I have read on this forum about flairing the pipe but do not believe this can happen. It is on the 2nd floor of a condo and it is a wood subfloor. There is a gap around the pipe and the floor so I don't think the lead can flair over anything. However I am not a plumber and I guess to get to the bottom of this basically I want to know how to reinstall the toilet? Can I use a wax seal with a funnel? I know there are some helpful individuals on this forum. So I hope this make sense if not I can try and clarify if you have concerns.

massplumber2008 · Oct 12, 2008, 11:53 AM

Hi teekayn...

You need to purchase a REPAIR CLOSET RING (see picture) and then purchase a wax gasket with horn and a wax gasket without horn (and some new johnni bolts).

Install the repair flange so it is lined up correctly for the bolts (bolts slid into place) and then screw the repair flange to the floor. Then take the wax ring without horn and fill in the voids between repair ring and lead pipe... use common sense here... ;) Then you will place the wax ring with horn onto the toilet bowl and set the bowl as usual.

You could also take some adhesive caulking, and fill the voids between repair ring and lead pipe... let that dry overnight and then set bowl... either way should work pretty good.

Once toilet is installed add a bead of caulking 70% around the base of toilet bowl to try to reduce movement in the future.

If this doesn't work then you may need to open the ceiling and cut lead to join new pipe and flange... ;)

Let us know what you think here...

MARK

teekayn · Oct 12, 2008, 02:06 PM

Hi thanks for your reply, will the wax be enough to fill the void? Also without sounding too much like an amateur why would it not be possible to use a pvc flange with wax around the funnel part to seal it and slide it into the lead pipe and secure to floor?
Teekayn

mygirlsdad77 · Oct 12, 2008, 02:15 PM

This would not be a code approved method of adapting pvc to lead or cast iron. Or any other pipe. The reason is strictly to save you headaches in the future. However, there are approved ways to connect pvc to other pipes. Would help to know if the standpipe is definitely lead, or could it be cast iron? As a plumber I would recommend getting under the floore and making necessary adaptations to pvc. In your case, I would stick to marks advice and go with the repair flange. If you are dead set on pvc flange, I'm sure on of the other guys can give you some info on pvc repair flanges.

teekayn · Oct 12, 2008, 02:42 PM

I appreciate the info, I am not set on PVC but the best fix. I just thought because the PVC had the funnel end it would give me some extra protection. However I am all for doing the best job. Again without trying to sound like an amateur I did buy a flange similar to the one pictured however it does not have any thing in the center of it is just a flat ring. Is this what I need? I think I attached some pics one is of the flange I have purchase and the other is of the drain (sorry for its appearance not cleaned yet).
As for what the pipe is made of I just thought it was lead based on the fact that it is metallic and the top is deformed. How can I confirm?

teekayn

ballengerb1 · Oct 12, 2008, 03:11 PM

When you took up the toilet I'll assume you disconnected the brasss johnnie bolts on each side. Is it really a metal flange still attached to the toilet or just a combination of old wax and neopreme? Very old installations, sometimes European, had not flange at all. Toilets where bolted to the floor and had a hefty loop of putty wrapped around a lead pipe. Have you confirmed that its lead, you can gouge lead with a knife point.

teekayn · Oct 12, 2008, 03:33 PM

I took the nuts off and lifted the toilet as I was lifting I noticed the bolt shanks were lifting at the same time. Once the toilet was off I have since peeled off a metal flange (seems like a typical brass flange I have seen at the store). So from what I can tell it looks like it was basically sandwiched in there with wax all around. The flange was attached to the toilet but never to the floor. So is the fix Mark provided the route I should go? Keep in mind I am not moving anytime soon and the fix I would hope to last. As for the pipe it seems a knife can scrape into it.

teekayn · Oct 12, 2008, 03:52 PM

Follow up, So I have began the job of actually cleaning this mess up. Once I took the flange off the toilet it now looks like the pipe went through this flange and at one time was flaired. I peeled a piece of soft metal off it and it has a jagged edge that appears to have broken free from the pipe. So basically what I am left with is the left over pipe end that is flush with the floor. So with this info am I now able to assume it is lead?

mygirlsdad77 · Oct 12, 2008, 03:58 PM

Hard to tell from the pic, but I would use the repair flange that you have purchased, follow marks directions, and you should be fine. Most important is that you get a good seal( the repair flange and wax ring should take care of this) so you don't get sewer gas into your home.

mygirlsdad77 · Oct 12, 2008, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by teekayn

Follow up, So I have began the job of actually cleaning this mess up. Once I took the flange off the toilet it now looks like the pipe went through this flange and at one time was flaired. I peeled a piece of soft metal off it and it has a jagged edge that appears to have broken free from the pipe. So basically what I am left with is the left over pipe end that is flush with the floor. So with this info am i now able to assume it is lead?

I would say the pipe that is flush with the floor is cast iron, The original flange was probably leaded in(lead and okum) It is possible to have a plumber lead and okum a new cast iron closet flange in, but I still think the repair flange is going to be your easiest and cheapest (do it yourself) fix.

Hope this helps.

Ps. Sorry about the double post. Purely unintentional

massplumber2008 · Oct 12, 2008, 04:25 PM

Teekayn...

Shine a flashlight inside the pipe and post another pic. Please... then we can discuss best options.

1) You could do what I suggested earlier...

2) You could try using a pvc flange...

3) Best would be to open ceiling and use an appropriate clamp to transition to plastic pipe and flange and be done with this once and for all...

UNLESS this is a cast iron pipe... then as MGD suggested real easy to have a cast iron flange leaded in and be set for a longgggg time.. ;)

Let us know what you can...

MARK

teekayn · Oct 12, 2008, 04:44 PM

Do these help?

teekayn

Again thanks.

massplumber2008 · Oct 12, 2008, 04:54 PM

It sure does! Thank you.

Lead pipe... for sure! This pipe will probably also pick up other fixtures in your bathroom... *OUCH*.

So, we're probably not just dealing with the toilet... more than likely the tub and the lavatory are also lead and transition over to adapters at the finished floor or under the floor.

I think you should start with the repair ring you showed us in a picture... secure it properly and set the toilet. If this works and gives you some time then you luck out! Eventually here, the lead pipes below the floor will need to be replaced.

I don't think a twist and set flange will work here (but it is close)... but important that you know of this type flange while exploring best options... see picture. These are available at home depot or at the local plumbing supply house and for giggles may be worth trying.

If want best solution then you open up the ceiling and repipe this all back to the cast iron waste stack in PVC or ABS...

Let us know what you think...

ballengerb1 · Oct 13, 2008, 04:05 PM

If your pipe is indeed a cast iron pipe you can install an Oakey Twist-n-set to make the repair. Twist N Set Cast Iron Replacement Closet Flange :: Oatey.com I just realized that this was a 2 page post and I only read page 1. I still think the Oatey will work but its made for cast iron so don't go over board with the twist part.

massplumber2008 · Oct 13, 2008, 04:27 PM

Hey Bob...

Nope... that pipe is definitely a lead pipe! Still... I've seen a homeowner or two use that twist and set flange with lead pipe successfully.. although in this case I don't think the lead 90 degree turn is long enough... click on his pics. At post #12 to see.

Hopefully, teekayn will return... :)

Good night!

teekayn · Oct 13, 2008, 05:09 PM

Okay I took all your advice into account and as I said I appreciate it. Today my Father-in-law came over and had his opinion. After seeing that some of you did mention the twist and turn with the expanding seal and the fact I thought about the pvc funnel type flange. He thought that (even though not code) we would try to use the PVC funnel type flange using a wax seal as the seal as opposed to the expanding o-ring/seal on the twist type. We then installed the toilet with an additional wax seal. I realize replacing the entire run of lead pipe is the best fix I am hoping what we did will serve as long as possible. It seems to work at this point though only a few hours in. I guess it came down to me letting the Father-in-law run with it (keeps wife happy) and I did feel it should work. I personally thought that the twist version may not have seated well with the lead since the pipe did seem a little soft so by sealing it with wax maybe it would conform to the lead pipe better. Does that make sense? Anyway I will let you know if I get an avalanche of waste water through my ceiling due to my repair. Thanks again all.

massplumber2008 · Oct 13, 2008, 05:11 PM

Glad to help here and thanks for the update Teekayn.

I think you guys took the best approach to this.

We will cross our fingers for you... :)

MARK

teekayn · Oct 13, 2008, 05:15 PM

Thanks,

Take care everyone.

Teekayn

p.s. I now know where to go for plumbing advice...

mygirlsdad77 · Oct 13, 2008, 05:23 PM

I can not honestly say that using the wax for a seal between the flange and the pipe was a good idea, just my opinion stemming from my experience. However, I do truly hope that it is problem free for many years to come. Good luck and take care.

teekayn · Oct 13, 2008, 05:32 PM

The thing is, as was mentioned if I used the repair flange I would have to fill in a lot of voided are with either sealant or wax as was mentioned which to me seemed to leave more room for failure down the road. The basic diff between me using the metal flange and the pvc funnel is what? Both needed wax or something to fill the void and both needed another wax seal on top of the replacement flange right? So why would it not work by using a replacement flange with a funnel sticking into the exsting pipe? This is not a smart response but a question cause I would really like to know if you have a reason why this can be a problem I just don't see it but would like to hear from you all if you have some input.