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gordonwise · Sep 28, 2008, 08:28 PM

I was dating a woman when she finished an adoption of our child from China. This adoption was started and financed without me before we met. We remained a couple sharing space and bills for 4 years. During this time I was always referred to as "Pa Pa" and assumed the role as father. The mother and I broke up about a year ago and at the time she agreed that it was OK for time to continue support and our relationship, which we did up until just recently without confrontation.

The mother recently started dating and has just told me that from now on I will have to spend less time with my child and in the near future they will move away and I will not see her anymore. I have bonded with my daughter as much as her mother has and do not feel it is fair to take me out of their lives. At present I was only allowed to spend 6 hours a week and now it will be less!

Please Help Me I am Devastated.

I am afraid I have no rights to visitation.

stinawords · Sep 28, 2008, 08:34 PM

Are you in the U.S. Are you listed as the father on the child's records of adoption or is just the mother? If you are not on there and I the U.S. then you have no rights because you are not the legal father. If you are on the papers as the father then you have as much right to the child as the mother (but I don't think this is the case).

JudyKayTee · Sep 29, 2008, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by stinawords

Are you in the U.S.? Are you listed as the father on the child's records of adoption or is just the mother? If you are not on there and i the U.S. then you have no rights because you are not the legal father. If you are on the papers as the father then you have as much right to the child as the mother (but I don't think this is the case).

Right, in the US if you are not the adoptive father - which you do not appear to be - you have no rights to the child.

You can certainly request visitation but, again, you have no rights and it is the mother's decision whether you can visit.

You could have some legal argument about being a FORMAL part of the child's life - and NYS is beginning to entertain such cases - if you and the mother had married and you had been a stepfather; however, that does not appear to be the case.

Fr_Chuck · Sep 29, 2008, 06:07 AM

Again, if you are in the US, she adopted the child, after that adoption, you did not go back to adopt as a step parent to be an adoptitive parent.

So you have no legal rights to the child, no obligation to pay support and no legal status for any visits.

So you can get only what she allows you.

ScottGem · Sep 29, 2008, 06:07 AM

I'm sorry, but from the way you worded your question it appears you never legally adopted the child. Unless you did, you have no legal standing.

gordonwise · Sep 29, 2008, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Right, in the US if you are not the adoptive father - which you do not appear to be - you have no rights to the child.

You can certainly request visitation but, again, you have no rights and it is the mother's decision whether or not you can visit.

You could have some legal argument about being a FORMAL part of the child's life - and NYS is beginning to entertain such cases - if you and the mother had married and you had been a stepfather; however, that does not appear to be the case.

What is NYS? Could being together for four years and living together and sharing living expense bills be considered "Common Law" marriage? I am desperate to not loose my daughter. I have been buying groceries school supplies and clothes all along. This I did without question and also gave my ex money to help her with her bills or to buy things she wanted. I would be more than willing to be committed to child support if it were part of any negotiated arrangement.

JudyKayTee · Sep 29, 2008, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by gordonwise

What is NYS? Could being together for four years and living together and sharing living expense bills be considered "Common Law" marriage? I am desperate to not loose my daughter. I have been buying groceries school supplies and clothes all along. This I did without question and also gave my ex money to help her with her bills or to buy things she wanted. I would be more than willing to be committed to child support if it were part of any negotiated arrangement.

There is no such thing as common law marriage in NYS - NYS DOES recognize a common law marriage between people who began a common law arrangement in a State which recognizes common law, lived there for a period and then moved to NYS but a couple cannot enter into common law in NYS.

If your ex will negotiate some sort of arrangement you can certainly do that. However, you do not have law to back you.

I honestly can read your pain over all of this. I'd consult with an Attorney, see if he/she can come up with a theory but as I am reading this I do not see that you have any legal rights. Judges in NYS - as I'm sure you are aware - will not rule on family law/marital law issues when the couple was never married as if the couple had married. In the eyes of the law, you are a stranger.

ScottGem · Sep 29, 2008, 11:55 AM

NYS is New York State. Most US states have dropped common law marriage rules.

I also understand your pain. However, I have to point out that you never opted to marry the mother or adopt the child. I'm not sure what your thinking was, but you never tried to gain legal rights and that's why you are in this position.

Maybe a good lawyer can make an argument that your relationship with the child and your financial contribution entitles you to some rights. But I would be skeptical.

gordonwise · Sep 29, 2008, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

NYS is New York State. Most US states have dropped common law marriage rules.

I also understand your pain. However, I have to point out that you never opted to marry the mother or adopt the child. I'm not sure what your thinking was, but you never tried to gain legal rights and that's why you are in this position.

Maybe a good lawyer can make an argument that your relationship with the child and your financial contribution entitles you to some rights. But I would be skeptical.

Thank all of you for your help... I don't see any silver linings yet. I will probably need to consult an attorney here in Texas. Please, if anyone has any ideas let me know. I was never considered to be an adopted father on paper. This was not by my choice. Any discussion of this always led to arguments. At first my concern was for guardianship if something were to happen to the mother. As it stood, my daughter was set up to go to my ex’s elderly parents. Our lack of making arrangements of this nature were not neglected, just never resolved.

Fr_Chuck · Sep 29, 2008, 12:54 PM

Also even if you were considered common law. Even if you went to the court house and got married, your being married to her does not give you any legal rights to the child still.
You have to had adopted the child to have any legal rights

JudyKayTee · Sep 29, 2008, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

NYS is New York State. Most US states have dropped common law marriage rules.

I also understand your pain. However, I have to point out that you never opted to marry the mother or adopt the child. I'm not sure what your thinking was, but you never tried to gain legal rights and that's why you are in this position.

Maybe a good lawyer can make an argument that your relationship with the child and your financial contribution entitles you to some rights. But I would be skeptical.

Sorry about this - I thought "What is NYS?" was asking "What [is he law in] NYS" and that's why I answered the way I did, the lengthy explanation about NYS law.

You'd think by now I'd learn I have to write it out -

gordonwise · Sep 29, 2008, 09:42 PM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Sorry about this - I thought "What is NYS?" was asking "What [is he law in] NYS" and that's why I answered the way I did, the lengthy explanation about NYS law.

You'd think by now I'd learn I have to write it out -

That's OK I understand.

I spoke to an organization today that says that Texas is on of the few states that recognize that if a non-married father is present for the first five years of a child’s life that he may qualify for parental rights as long as he has shown support and participated in care-giving. This group wants 150ish dollars to do a preliminary research into this and if I wish to continue there would be a retainer involved.

I am suspicious that there may be a play on my desperation. Has anyone heard of such a code or case law?

I am cautious that I may become an adversary in my daughter’s life with respect to her young age and ability to understand what is happening. I would be willing to do anything to keep my child in my life.

gordonwise · Sep 29, 2008, 09:44 PM

Helpful for start

JudyKayTee · Sep 30, 2008, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by gordonwise

That's ok I understand.

I spoke to an organization today that says that Texas is on of the few states that recognize that if a non-married father is present for the first five years of a child’s life that he may qualify for parental rights as long as he has shown support and participated in care-giving. This group wants 150ish dollars to do a preliminary research into this and if I wish to continue there would be a retainer involved.

I am suspicious that there may be a play on my desperation. Has anyone heard of such a code or case law?

I am cautious that I may become an adversary in my daughter’s life with respect to her young age and ability to understand what is happening. I would be willing to do anything to keep my child in my life.

I'm not in Texas so I don't know BUT I'd take that $150 - or whatever they are asking - and place it in the hands of a Family Law Attorney and get an educated, experienced, knowledgeable opinion.

No matter WHAT this group digs up someone is going to have to make a legal argument - win, lose or draw - and I don't see "them" qualified to do it.

You need an Attorney or you are going to pay twice - $150 now and legal fees later.

(And my research finds nothing like that. If live-in's - and I don't mean that harshly. I just don't know else to phrase it - suddenly and automatically have visitation rights or custody rights, despite the wishes of the natural parent, the Courts are going to be in shambles. Questions such as how long do you live together before you have rights will become pivotal. In your case when you KNEW that in the event of the death of the mother custody of the child would go to the grandparents, not to you, it's even more complicated.)

gordonwise · Sep 30, 2008, 07:25 AM

Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I'm not in Texas so I don't know BUT I'd take that $150 - or whatever they are asking - and place it in the hands of a Family Law Attorney and get an educated, experienced, knowledgeable opinion.

No matter WHAT this group digs up someone is going to have to make a legal argument - win, lose or draw - and I don't see "them" qualified to do it.

You need an Attorney or you are going to pay twice - $150 now and legal fees later.

(And my research finds nothing like that. If live-in's - and I don't mean that harshly. I just don't know else to phrase it - suddenly and automatically have visitation rights or custody rights, despite the wishes of the natural parent, the Courts are going to be in shambles. Questions such as how long do you live together before you have rights will become pivotal. In your case when you KNEW that in the event of the death of the mother custody of the child would go to the grandparents, not to you, it's even more complicated.)

Thanks for your help... I agree and I will get a lawyer. My ex actually moved in with me as I was by far more financially sound, she then brought our child into my home. It is complicated, and always had been and I do feel like I have a strong bond with my daughter that cannot be ignored, I refuse. All along after our separation I have been doing the girl scouts, swimming classes, Gymnastics, holidays, birthdays, working on their house, fundraisers for school, you name it, if I was made aware of it, I was there. I provided more voluntarily than most do by court order.

No need to reply I just wanted to clarify our living arrangement. I will take your advice and do what I can and will also follow up with you after my initial consultation to let you know if there is any meat to the "theory" of cohabitation rights. Wish me luck.

Emotionally crushed but appreciative,
Gordon

ScottGem · Sep 30, 2008, 08:01 AM

According to Texas statue 160.204 a man is presumed to be the father of a child if:
(5) during the first two years of the child's life, he continuously resided in the household in which the child resided and he represented to others that the child was his own.
FAMILY CODE CHAPTER 160. UNIFORM PARENTAGE ACT

Unfortunately, I don't think that qualifies you. Section 160 covers the issues of parentage, so your answers to your legal rights would be found there.

I just saved you $150 ;)

gordonwise · Sep 30, 2008, 08:40 AM

Great answer

gordonwise · Sep 30, 2008, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

According to Texas statue 160.204 a man is presumed to be the father of a child if:
(5) during the first two years of the child's life, he continuously resided in the household in which the child resided and he represented to others that the child was his own.
FAMILY CODE CHAPTER 160. UNIFORM PARENTAGE ACT

Unfortunately, I don't think that qualifies you. Section 160 covers the issues of parentage, so your answers to your legal rights would be found there.

I just saved you $150 ;)

I think that most definitely qualifies me! It will still be a case argued, no doubt. I thank you for your interest and support.

ScottGem · Sep 30, 2008, 08:51 AM

The reason I didn't think it qualifies you is that the child was adopted. Was it adopted as an infant? That might tip the scales in your favor.

But in any case, good luck!

gordonwise · Sep 30, 2008, 09:04 AM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

The reason I didn't think it qualifies you is that the child was adopted. Was it adopted as an infant? That might tip the scales in your favor.

But in any case, good luck!

Yes she was born in China, lived there in an orfanage for a year and was brought over at 1 year old to the US by my ex. We all moved in together.