[Credendovidis]

So you expect governing officials that have faith in some belief system to be schizophrenic?

Not at all. These officials should keep to their Constitution that clearly describes that specific separation. What they do in their governmental work should remain separated from and uninfluenced by their personal belief system. Outside their work they are free to believe whatever suits them best. Just as the rest of us all!
.

Hmmm........ do I trust someone who can't even be true to themselves - for the sake of political correctness nonetheless, ..........versus someone who knows themselves and , is not ashamed to tell you of their beliefs, regardless of what you may think of them.

Hmmm... unless you are clear what you mean with that... Why should I be expected to react on this?
.

Oh, I get it you do not want any governing officials to have any faith?

As stated : Not at all. These officials should keep to their Constitution that clearly describes that specific separation. What they do in their governmental work should remain separated from and uninfluenced by their personal belief system. Outside their work they are free to believe whatever suits them best. Just as the rest of us all!
.

That contradicts freedom of religious expression [ 1st amendment ], doesn't it?

Not at all. The original meaning and intention of the Constitution itself comes first and above any later amendments.
And no that does not contradicts freedom of religious expression, as outside their work they are free to believe whatever suits them best. Just as the rest of us all!
If people feel incapable of keeping to the Constitution for that specific reason, they are free to find other employment, and/or should never have accepted governmental employment in the first place.
;)

[ordinaryguy]

The original meaning and intention of the Constitution itself comes first and above any later amendments.

What? Surely you don't mean that all of the duly enacted amendments to the Constitution are null and void.

[Credendovidis]

What? Surely you don't mean that all of the duly enacted amendments to the Constitution are null and void.

As is clear from my full post I referred to the original intention of the US Constitution as expressed by the "Fathers of the Constitution" in 1787.
Any amendment to that Constitution made ever since is of course just as valid, but one more step away from that original intention.
.
And that intention was clear and beyond any doubt : Full Separation of Church and State!!

:rolleyes:

[eawoodall]

Bible is proven.

By 'textual criticism', if you don't know what that is look up on internet.

By quotes included in bible that scholars have proven must have been made by people exactly when they bible says it was written.

By science because we discovery every time we compare the bible and our knowledge that the bible is correct

By the action of the world, because the effect on peoples lives that are changed.

By the miracles, and the books that should be written.

And all these things, are just the things that atheists claim. These are what people admit.

The bible is proven already as fact. The word fact means events that have actually happened. You can believe gravity does not exist, but if you step off a tall building gravity might have something to say to you. The same is true of the view in the bible.

History shows the bible is reliable. Either in total or not at all. The bible says if someone is not realiable 100% of the time, do not listen to them. I KNOW the bible is true.
That you ask this question shows you do not know enough history, or english, or math, or science, or other basis for facts.

There is a need for being saved from ourselves, many call it salvation. Ergo a need for a religion to fill the void, if you choose to not accept the valid path.
People who wrote the bible wrote of their lives. And many died proving it was their life, because many could have simply publicly denounced their beliefs and lived. Would not one out of several hundred have chosen to not be executed, if it was a lie they made up?

No, faith is evidence of things not seen. I have only mentioned what those who are not christians admit. If you are in room, across from a chair. You believe the chair will support your weight, but only by sitting it in, are you actually exerting faith that it supports you.
Belief without action is not faith. It is fantasy. You can say you believe you can pick the lottery numbers every time. But if you want to win, and do not buy a lottery ticket, you are not having faith in your ability to pick the numbers. Just all talk.

Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say. I do not know many books that give facts for my arguments for each specific argument; but I do know that to say that the Bible is so factual you can make it the only source for your information is just wrong! Give hard evidence that the men who wrote the Bible did not just write what they believed or thought. We cannot prove that! Religion is made up to explain the unexplainable and to give hope that we do not just live to die. If you contradict that statement then tell me why is there so many different religions? Why is it that the thought of just dieing and being no more bothers so many? I know I got off the subject of proving the Bible to be factual, but I have so many questions and I would like someone who knows real answers besides "Thats called Faith" to answer me.

[Onan]

the bible is proven already as fact.

When did this happen?

history shows the bible is reliable.

Not really, can you give some some examples?

people who wrote the bible wrote of their lives. And many died proving it was their life, because many could have simply publicly denounced their beliefs and lived.

In the past people of all different religious beliefs have died for their faith, does that mean all of them are right? Just because people die believing something doesn't make it true.

[eawoodall]

1. He was trying to determine if you are sincere, in wanting answers or just hatemongering

2. yes you can ask questions.

3. he did not ask you to accept his view, you asked him to prove his view.

4, even napaleon went across the red sea at the place where it parts or tried to, you must be ignorant of history to not know he proved it exists and where. You see only when the wind blows directly from the east there does the water part. But if the winds shifts, it closes. Napaleon on his horse almost drown trying to get out before the water went back in.
You don't know the history of egypt. The ones called the 'black hearts' because they did not worship but one god were there for quite a while. Joseph of the coat of many colors was known as imhotep. He ruled the country (under the pharoah-who was a relative as the bible states). Abraham brought arithmetic to egypt. His son brought more. Imhotep wrote a book on geometry that euclid admitted joseph wrote, and euclid told all his greek friends he did not invent geometry joseph did. Imhotep made the first pyramid. Joseph servants were physicians. Joseph many think wrote 'genesis', you see moses was in egypt about 400 yeas later, and he was taught all the egyptians knew as a prince of eygpt, and choose to be counted as a hebrew. And when moses left eygpt he wrote down the 5 books (torah) from memory of genesis, and divine inspiration of all.

We have even found the statue of one wearing a coat of many colors, in eygpt, in the place where the bible says they lived, for the hebrews did not live with the eygptians, but in their own settlement. And his tomb, but the bible says when moses and the others left they took his body back to the holy land, and imhoteps tomb is empty. Yes they had oblitered the face on the statue because they wanted to forget the hebrews were ever there. The eygptians often 'wiped out the pharoahs monuments' they did not like after the pharoahs died, but never well enough.

Paranoid is to be overly concerned. I am not overly concerned, just concerned enough that you know that all you ask is already proven beyond any doubt, even has been done so in courts, and other governmental places, many times. But separation of church and state means you do not understand nor can you be told that such things are done. Secrets exist, but often only for a little while.

Do not presume that one thing called a church is equal with another. People who worship idols like spagetti know they do wrong in their heart. And someone mentioned it as a alternative valid thing. Why would anyone think something they cooked would be worthy of worship?

Wow.

Chuck,

You ought to get some counseling.

1. How do you get from an attempt to focus on the the questioner's question to an assumption that someone hates religion?

2. I thought these boards were open to all comers. I didn't know this one belonged only to individuals who were "true believers" in christianity. You probably ought to list it that way.

3. Questioning you is either evil or longing to know the real truth? I would have thought everyone wanted to know the real truth. That's why we study and debate. Your issue is that everyone doesn't accept YOUR view.

4. I don't know of a Dig that turned up a holy ghost or a burning bush or any dry land under the red sea. By the way, there is a very large amount of Egyptian history and there is no mention in it of jews. It ought to have been mentioned somewhere since around 1 million of them walked out on the pharaoh. That would have been around 2/3rds of the population of Egypt at that time.

5. Isn't everyone's motive to get good answers to the questions posed? Isn't the best way to do that getting opinions from all sides? The best minister I ever knew taught that a believer needed to be able to debate anyone over issues of faith without sounding whacked out. He felt it was the best thing that could be done to coax non-believers into the fold.

I think your reply made my point on being paranoid.

[eawoodall]

I already told you when and where. You are not listening. Obviosly you choose ignorance.

already given many examples. You don't choose to believe in facts.

mentally ill people die can think anything, and commit suicide, but their religion or personal pivotal value is not to blame for mental illness.
only a person who is being killed for their life, and who is offered to live if they renounce what they have lived is a valid person who can be believed. You see spys report what people do, and when you kill someone for their life, that is proven they were correct.

how can we prove the bible is factual, already done! Want to do it again, just read.

when did this happen??

Not really, can you give some some examples??

In the past people of all different religious beliefs have died for their faith, does that mean all of them are right?? Just because people die believing something doesn't make it true.

[Credendovidis]

how can we prove the bible is factual, already done! want to do it again, just read.

WHERE ? WHEN ? With WHAT ?

Some MINOR points in the Bible may be correct. But the Bible as such has never been proved for what it is claimed to be.
Neither was there ever any objective supporting evidence for the Bible being factual, and - because the Bible is based on BELIEF - it never will.

Believe what you prefer, believe whatever suits you, but do not insist that whatever you BELIEVE is factual until that has been proved to be that!

:rolleyes:

[Moparbyfar]

Believe what you prefer, believe whatever suits you, but do not insist that whatever you BELIEVE is factual until that has been proved to be that!

Funny... that's EXACTLY what people are doing who lean toward evolution... no proven facts there so far!!

:rolleyes:

[NeedKarma]

Funny..........that's EXACTLY what people are doing who lean toward evolution.......no proven facts there so far!!!!!!!

Evolution: Fact Or Theory? How Can It Be Both? What's the Difference?

Evidence Supporting Biological Evolution | Science and Creationism: A View from the National Academy of Sciences, Second Edition

[eawoodall]

Wrong

Wrong

Wrong

What you believe does not make reality. Reality makes you. What you think about it, is never the issue. My beliefs do not change reality, neither do yours, no matter what you think. Actual scientists know what proof is. And you have been given proof, that you do not believe it, shows your ignorance of science. It is proven. Sad you don't know about legal proof, or formal logic. The bible is not about belief, it is a factual book of events. You can choose to belief an event happened or not, but if it did occur the word is fact. You can think jfk did not die, you can think right is wrong, but it will not change the view of everyone else toward you, but to realize you are not reasonable or honest intellectually.

I never quoted anyone in the bible, nor about the bible, I just told you about scientific evidence that proves the bible is right. From people such as yourself who are atheists.
You don't believe atheists? When they say the bible has been proven as true?

WHERE ? WHEN ? With WHAT ?

Some MINOR points in the Bible may be correct. But the Bible as such has never been proved for what it is claimed to be.
Neither was there ever any objective supporting evidence for the Bible being factual, and - because the Bible is based on BELIEF - it never will.

Believe what you prefer, believe whatever suits you, but do not insist that whatever you BELIEVE is factual until that has been proved to be that!

:rolleyes:

[NeedKarma]

i just told you about scientific evidence that proves the bible is right.

Is this the scientific evidence you refer to?
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...tml#post981598

[talaniman]

the bible is not about belief, it is a factual book of events.

It's a history book, that gives us a great glimpse into the life of ancient man, and his struggle for his humanity. One thing for sure, ancient man knew right from wrong, and tried to do right, despite many obstacles. Just as modern man does. There are many history books from ancient man, from many regions of the world, that have valuable insights into how they thought, acted, believed, and lived.

[eawoodall]

quantum algebra for example proves that the complexity of this universe is about 16.
any amoeba requires a complexity of 1024 to exist randomly.
so no single amoeba can exist in this universe by evolution or randomness, only an act of creation by a divine being could create them. And how much more mathematically are people complex compared to an amoeba?
billions and billions is the term.

even the dialetric process has proven that God exists in the mental capacity field. That God must be perfect and think perfect, and so act perfectly. That you have not heard of such scientific proofs that are accepted throughout the world is sad.

[Onan]

even napaleon went across the red sea at the place where it parts or tried to, you must be ignorant of history to not know he proved it exists and where. You see only when the wind blows directly from the east there does the water part. But if the winds shifts, it closes. Napaleon on his horse almost drown trying to get out before the water went back in.

Everyone knows the Red Sea exists, but as you so nicely pointed out it was not an act of God that parted the Red Sea as told in the Exodus story, but an act of nature. This does not in any way prove the story true, it just proves back when the story was written they too knew of the act of nature.

you don't know the history of egypt.

Yes I do, and no where in their history do they mention the story of moses, and the great escape.

joseph of the coat of many colors was known as imhotep. He ruled the country (under the pharoah-who was a relative as the bible states).

This is just fantasy, there is not much to support it because the times these guys lived were not even close to being the same. Imhotep lived during the third dynasty(2635-2595 BCE) while most theologians say Joseph lived around 1730 BCE. Looks to me like someone borrowed an egyptian story and tried to apply it to themselves. That's just my theory though. I would like to mention though that Imhotep was deified and became the son of Ptah. He was thought of as a God by the egyptians. I think this should be more than enough to show they are two different people. Joseph was never considered a God and rightly so because the Bible tells us there is only one, right?

joseph many think wrote 'genesis',

I never heard this.

you see moses was in egypt about 400 yeas later, and he was taught all the egyptians knew as a prince of eygpt, and choose to be counted as a hebrew. And when moses left eygpt he wrote down the 5 books (torah) from memory of genesis, and divine inspiration of all.

Yep and even wrote of his own death and funeral. That's some trick.

we have even found the statue of one wearing a coat of many colors, in eygpt, in the place where the bible says they lived, for the hebrews did not live with the eygptians, but in their own settlement. And his tomb, but the bible says when moses and the others left they took his body back to the holy land, and imhoteps tomb is empty. Yes they had oblitered the face on the statue because they wanted to forget the hebrews were ever there. The eygptians often 'wiped out the pharoahs monuments' they did not like after the pharoahs died, but never well enough.

I don't even know what to say about this. I don't know if I should laugh or cry. It's amazing to me the lengths people will go to just to prove the Bible true. I think you will have to try harder than this. So far you have shown the Hebrews liked to borrow things from earlier legends for their own. This is not the only case of this either. As I have mentioned before a lot of those early stories in the Bible came from earlier stories and legends. History does not prove the Bible factual, and in most cases proves the exact opposite. Sure there is all kinds of proof of all the enemies the hebrews faced but for some reason we come up blank on the heroes. Explain that to me. That's like saying Captain America was a real person because Hitler was a real person.

[Credendovidis]

Funny..........that's EXACTLY what people are doing who lean toward evolution.......no proven facts there so far!!!!!!!

That is a ridiculous claim. There is overwhelming scientific objective evidence for evolution.
A scientific Theory like the Theory of Evolution is not "just a theory", but a scientific near-fact, accepted and supported sufficiently.
That stated : of course there still are - and most probably still will remain - holes in the theory, caused by the long time involved (over 3,5 Billion years ago since life took hold on earth), the lack of evidence for all life forms that lacked bones to be fossilized, and for transition forms between species due to the short time of their existence.

That is entirely different than the position of religious claims for which there will NEVER be any possible way to provide objective supporting evidence!

:rolleyes:

[Credendovidis]

quantum algebra for example proves that the complexity of this universe is about 16.

16 WHAT ?

any amoeba requires a complexity of 1024 to exist randomly.

1024 WHAT ?

so no single amoeba can exist in this universe by evolution or randomness

So? What nonsensical conclusion is that? Based on what argument?

... only an act of creation by a divine being could create them.

That is what you BELIEVE. But on what is that based, if you claim that to be factual?

... even the dialetric process has proven that God exists in the mental capacity field.

WHERE ? WHEN ?

... that God must be perfect and think perfect, and so act perfectly.

"must be"... is THAT your objective supporting evidence ?

...that you have not heard of such scientific proofs that are accepted throughout the world is sad.

Scientific proofs... :D :D ROLFL :D :D I see that you have not even an inkling of what the term scientific proof means...

:rolleyes:

[Moparbyfar]

[QUOTE=[B]Credendovidis[/B]] There is overwhelming scientific objective evidence for evolution.
A scientific Theory like the Theory of Evolution is not "just a theory", but a scientific near-fact, accepted and supported sufficiently.[Quote]

If a poll was taken of all the scientists in the world, most would say they believe Darwinism is true not because of fact but because like everybody else, they base most of their opinions on the words of other people.

A comment from Darwins Black Box - "In private many scientists admit that science has no explaination for the beginning of life...Darwin never imagined the exquisitely profound complexity that exists even at the most basic levels of life."

In 2004 the National Geographic described the fossil record as being like "a film of evolution from which 999 of every 1,000 frames have been lost on the cutting-room floor."
The remaining "frames" fail to document the process of evolution as anything more than just a theory.

[Fr_Chuck]

In several of the digs, they found various things, buildings where after a while some of the bricks no longer used stray, following the exact theme of the Old Testement, There is so much science proof that the Old Testement is true, I can not see anyone with knowledge of it, even doubting the main themes of the storys. They may disagree with what caused the Sea to part, but not the issue of slaves and the such from that time.

Even events like the flood have been proven though flood layers found that showed major parts of the "known" world of that time would have been flooded at some point in history.

So in general, those that don't want to believe will make up their own "BELIEFS" so they don't have to accept, but in the end, it is all what they BELIEVE, since they can't prove it or show it

[talaniman]

If you think about it no culture can offer facts for its beliefs, they just believe it.