[Onan]

I am sorry you can not just accept the truth of the bible, you don't have to, but the proofs are there, you are merely to blind with some dislike of Christianity to look and see it.

What is it you have against Christinity, why do you wish to attack it ?

Nothing against christianity at all. The OT isn't without it's faults so Judaism isn't so accurate either. The creation and flood stories in the OT were borrowed from older Babylonian and Sumerian stories. I think what's hard for people to understand is where these stories came from in the first place. People back then didn't know why there was storms, why volcanos erupted, why earthquakes happened, why there were famines etc etc. The best they could come up with was it was the work of angry Gods. We as humans know better than this now. We as humans know that dancing around a fire will not make it rain.

Sorry Onan, you still haven't managed to convince me that the bible is nothing more than a drawn-out novel.

Oh there is more, a lot more. My fingers want a break though. My Christian mother knows all of this and accepts most of it, but doesn't care.

[Moparbyfar]

My Christian mother knows all of this and accepts most of it, but doesn't care.

Then I guess she's not a true christian then, because faith and trust in our creator helps us to decipher the obvious truth from that which many TRY to prove as fiction with "philosophies and empty deceptions." (Col 2:8)
I know you scoff at the idea but God originally intended us to follow his guidelines for life because we are simply not designed to "direct our own step" (Jer 10:23). No! I don't mean we were meant to be robots and not use our own minds, but by going beyond the boundaries He has given us (and pretty decent boundaries really) we do damage to ourselves and our relationship with Him. Do you not give your children rules and boundaries to keep them safe? Some today prefer to have no limits though as did Adam and Eve... oh hang on, they never existed right?
I am curious, how did you think we all got here if you don't take the evolution way either? :confused:

[ordinaryguy]

3. Questioning you is either evil or longing to know the real truth?

I know, this dropped my jaw too. The man never ceases to amaze. My all time favorite is this one:

I don't believe dinosaurs really existed, but the evidence of them is merley a trick of satan to cause people to fall away from the real truth.

[Galveston1]

The Bible proves and explains itself. Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.

[ordinaryguy]

The Bible proves and explains itself. Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.

And some folks are sincere and diligent, find out what it is all about and decide it isn't for them.

[Onan]

Then I guess she's not a true christian then,

She is a true Christian because she follows blindly even knowing without doubt there is reason to believe not everything in the Bible is true. Blind faith is exactly what you need to believe in religion. Faith is the #1 requriement for christianity(any religion). To know the truth about something and still believe something else makes her the perfect Christian.

because faith and trust in our creator helps us to decipher the obvious truth from that which many TRY to prove as fiction with "philosophies and empty deceptions."

Obvious truth?? I believe I just showed if someone was being diceitful, it was Matthew. I have no need to make things up, I'm not starting a new religion. I read everything available to me and make up my own mind if it should be believed or not. There was many other gosples written that did not make the cut into the Christian Bible. Have you ever asked yourself why this was? Have you ever read or read about the other gosples? Have you ever wondered why every religion claim they are the right religion and their God is the only God? Christianity does not stand alone. You ask a Jew and he will tell you and even show you that his religion is the one and only true religion and Muslims can do the very same thing. Does that make them right? Out of hundreds and even thousands of Gods throughout history, I believe in one less than you and that makes me a deciever? Me saying there was no Jesus is no different than a christian saying there was no Mithra, or any other God or God men.

I am curious, how did you think we all got here if you don't take the evolution way either?

I do believe in evolution. I don't quite believe everything that's understood about it right now but evolution is 100% fact. Anyone who says differently is living in denial. I don't believe that is reason to discount a creator though, which is why you will never see me argue whether there is a God. Just because I debate whether Jesus was a God does not mean I am debating whether there is a God at all. I have said before I am not a scientist, and science bores the hell out of me.

Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.

I agree, people should read and find out what it's all about. It takes a lot of reading and research to find out the truth. Sometimes it's not easy if you was taught something else your whole life. Do you think I know the things I know without studying?

People believe what they believe, and that's OK. I just think the truth is much more interesting.

[Credendovidis]

The Bible proves and explains itself. Some folks are just too intellectually dishonest or lazy to try to find out what it is all about.

As I stated before : SOME points in the Bible may be correct. But if one (or more people together) writes a book full of wild claims, some of these claims will also turn out to be correct. Forecasting is based on that! And always only those claims that came true are remembered.

The question is - specially within this topic : can the Bible as a book in it's entirety be proved factual. The answer to that is clearly NO.

The Evolution Theory can not be proved to be 100% correct based on objective supported evidence. But with the overall majority of the Theory being supported that way, it is at least scientifically accepted as a reality.

The Bible can not be proved to be 100% correct neither based on objective supportive evidence. Hardly a couple of percent of it's stories can be supported from factual historical data and findings.
.
So the Bible can not be proved to be factual. And that has nothing to do with intellectually dishonesty or laziness.
Period.
:rolleyes:

[Moparbyfar]

[QUOTE=Onan] she follows blindly even knowing without doubt there is reason to believe not everything in the Bible is true.[Quote]

My point exactly. If anyone thinks there is a reason to doubt God's Word then the faith and accurate knowledge of that one, attainable through the bible, is obviously weak.
A true christian would study the Word deeper to prove to THEMSELVES that it is the truth, to keep testing to "make sure of all things" (1 Thess 5:21) and not just take anothers word for it.
Yes, yes, you keep saying that EVIDENCE proves otherwise, but you have NEVER in the whole time of posting comments even slightly swayed my faith, due to my studying deeply Gods thoughts on everything and putting complete trust in Him, not so called evidence which steers well away from the whole theme of the bible which is to promote God's kingdom as the only hope for mankind.
You may call it blindness or stupidity, but I simply call it integrity.

[Quote]
Out of hundreds and even thousands of Gods throughout history, I believe in one less than you and that makes me a deciever? Me saying there was no Jesus is no different than a christian saying there was no Mithra, or any other God or God men.[Quote]

The most important God to remember here is the one who created us because only HE has the means to reverse all the mistakes that imperfect man has made through the thousands of years. If you have studied so many versions of the bible I'm sure you can tell me the name of that one and how he proposes to do this. I think you'll find that His name was neither Allah nor Mithra nor Vishnu nor Amun nor Hashem. It seems that not many religious faiths - even those claiming to be christian, can truthfully say they "call on His Name to be saved." (Rom 10:13) Sure they use Jesus name in worship but as you and I know full well, this is not God Almighty.

[Quote] it takes a lot of reading and research to find out the truth, Sometimes its not easy if you were taught something else your whole life. I think the truth is much more interesting. [Quote]

Only after years of being away from all religion did I realise Gods Word is in fact a protection not a restriction as mankind are digging themselves deeper and deeper into a hole of complete hopelessness.
Boy did it take some serious research and meditation on Gods Word (and still does) for me to find the truth... which yes quite rightly is VERY VERY interesting, but more than that it helps me see that sad conditions of the world aren't going to remain as they are for long and YAY no natural disasters or sickness or death.
In the words of Louis Armstrong "What a wonderful world!"

I think you should post the question HOW CAN WE PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS FACTUAL?

Fingers are hot but not smokin lol.

[rodandy12]

I agree with a lot of what is being said on both sides of this issue. I believe it is a form of dishonesty to establish a position and never analyze it. I think the problem many people have with religious zealots of any faith is that once they establish a position, they will hear nothing that might tend to compromise their position. They will reshape the world... like not believing in dinosaurs... if it puts them in a position of compromise. Some psychologist might have a name for this. For me, these are the truly lazy people.

God gave us a world and life in it. There is much that is hard to understand about it. Without trying to start another string, much seems to contradict standard rhetoric from the generally followed religions. God gave us life, he/she didn't give us religion. Our ancestors made that up (did it numerous times) and it seems to me it is pretty easy to understand why.

We humans have a strong need to understand how we fit into the world we were given. Religion is an attempt to do that. I can't discount the notion that god spoke to people in the past and those people passed that information down to others. Over the centuries, though, religion has been used by many for other purposes. It is a perfect tool for herding those non-seekers of knowledge into controllable boxes. One doesn't have to look very far to see it.

For me, it is a struggle to take it all in and try to sort it out in my own mind. Even though humans can't comprehend the whole ball of wax, it is probably worth a life to be a seeker throughout it. I just work to try and understand little pieces. My conscience won't let me completely lock down a belief if I can't understand/justify it no matter where it comes from... short of divine revelation, of course. But, we haven't had much of that in a while.

[Onan]

If anyone thinks there is a reason to doubt God's Word then the faith and accurate knowledge of that one, attainable through the bible, is obviously weak.

My goal was not to prove how much of a christian my mother is, but to point out that it won't matter what is shown the believer will believe regardles.

A true christian would study the Word deeper to prove to THEMSELVES that it is the truth, to keep testing to "make sure of all things" (1 Thess 5:21) and not just take anothers word for it.

There was more written than what ended up in the Bible. At one time all of the stuff left out of the Bible was also considered the word of God. If a person really wants to study and learn they would get a hold of the other writings. I agree you should never accept someone's word for anything, but isn't that what the christian is doing by believing the Bible? By believing the books in the christian Bible your taking someone's word over the words written by someone else. The only way to change that is study it all and then come to conclusions. It's a long process though, it's something I have been doing now for 20 years. You have to study everything from the history of religion to translations. The first thing I learned when I started was how there was mistranslations and forgeries in the Bible to coinside with whatever the forger believed. This kind of research is easy now, all you have to do is Google history of religion, or history of christianity. It was not that easy when I started my research.

You may call it blindness or stupidity

I would never call anyone stupid for believeing what they believe. However I will suggest there is a lot you don't know about religion as a whole.

I think you should post the question HOW CAN WE PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS FACTUAL?

That would be too easy. It would also bore me to tears.

Fingers are hot but not smokin lol.

:) :) :)

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I don't believe dinosaurs really existed, but the evidence of them is merely a trick of satan to cause people to fall away from the real truth.

CHUCK, chuck, chuck,,

Did you really write that??

I have heard this before, but I thought the thing now was believing what the creationists teach, that dinosaurs and humans lived together and the big lizards were even on the ark.

At any rate this is the problem I have with the way christians think at times. To me this is giving satan way too much credit and power.

[Credendovidis]

By believing the books in the Christian Bible you're taking someone's word over the words written by someone else.

You are right on that. The various human selections of Bible books that resulted in the Bible we know today is therefore claimed to be written "guided by God", to give the human selection some glorious higher spiritual lining.
.

I would never call anyone stupid for believing what they believe.

Neither would I. People should be free to believe whatever they prefer. That does not make whatever they believe more than BELIEF, though! Reason why I always ask people - who CLAIM that what they believe is "the one and only truth" - to provide objective supporting evidence for that.
After doing that already for many years I still have to receive the first ever valid evidence...
.

I think you should post the question HOW CAN WE PROVE THAT EVOLUTION IS FACTUAL?

That would be too easy. It would also bore me to tears.

As I stated earlier :

The Evolution Theory can not be proved to be 100% correct based on objective supported evidence. But with the overall majority of the Theory being supported that way, it is at least scientifically accepted as real, and as factual.

The Bible can not be proved to be 100% correct neither based on objective supportive evidence. But hardly a couple of percent of all stories and "facts" in the Bible can be supported from factual historical data and findings.
So the Bible as book and as "word of God" can not be proved to be factual at all. It is not a book of physics or history. It is a religious manual to guide people through life...
;)

[ordinaryguy]

To me this is giving satan way too much credit and power.

Epic struggle needs a worthy adversary. If Satan didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.

[ordinaryguy]

After doing that already for many years I still have to receive the first ever valid evidence ...

I don't doubt that this has been your experience. What I don't understand is why you think it's noteworthy. After all these years of doing the same thing and getting the same result, why does it still surprise you?

[Onan]

Epic struggle needs a worthy adversary. If Satan didn't exist, we'd have to invent him.

This is true, but Satan does not need to prove his existence by proving God does not exist. To believe in one means you have to believe in the other. Satan would be proving he didn't exist as well which would be pointless on his part. I just don't understand why people would think planting dinosaur bones all over the globe is some diabolical plan from Satan to prove the bible wrong. To reject the bible would be to reject both entities in which case no one wins. If this is indeed a power struggle between God and Satan, Satan would be winning right now because he brings proof to the table while God expects people to get it from a book that can't even agree with itself. That's why I say they give too much credit and power to Satan.

[Credendovidis]

I don't doubt that this has been your experience. What I don't understand is why you think it's noteworthy. After all these years of doing the same thing and getting the same result, why does it still surprise you?

Who says it surprises me? I did not state that! Not even hinted into that direction!
.
I think it is very noteworthy, as - with all my respect for the individual freedom of any individual to believe whatever one prefers to believe - it is necessary to make sure that Church and State for ever stay separated.
;)

[ordinaryguy]

I just don't understand why people would think planting dinosaur bones all over the globe is some diabolical plan from Satan to prove the bible wrong. To reject the bible would be to reject both entities in which case no one wins.

Ah, but in their mind Satan DOES win if he fools people into thinking he either doesn't exist, or isn't very powerful.

[ordinaryguy]

it is necessary to make sure that Church and State for ever stay separated. ;)

I certainly agree with you about this, but I don't remember you mentioning before now that this is your reason for discussing it. Mostly, you have railed against people who claim that what they BELIEVE is the one and only truth, but offer no "objective proof" to support their position--as if they OWE you that. I agree with you that it's an absurd claim for them to make, but your insistence that they are somehow obligated to meet your standard of "proof" is equally absurd. As long as they don't try to write it into law and use the power of the state to enforce it, they don't owe the rest of us any kind of "proof".

[talaniman]

Every time I get into a debate with a Christian about the Christian beliefs, the bible is the only source they ever use to back up what they say.

Don't be frustrated by that, as every religious person who walks the earth does the same thing with whatever book they hold to be divine, by whatever God they worship. The amazing thing I have learned over the years, is they all believe the same thing about their religion, and the book they use, and think its so different, than the guy over there. They even have the shortsightedness to point to the differences, but its an attempt to elevate them over those, and if you stand back, and watch them go at it, its all in the same way. There are a lot more similarities than differences so don't worry about who's the best, and never ask who you should listen to as they will all want you to follow them, and not those. Their book gives them the right, I think to be right. The only real difference really is the geography and custom they talk about, which under careful scrutiny, and the surprise of those that question, they all have the same basic code of conduct. I can only suggest you talk to others, that think they are so different, even if the geography is distant, and see those amazing similarities between humans, and their, writings for yourself. The best analogy is how the young guys wear their colors, to show where they come from, same shirt, different color, same behavior. They hate and kill the other color, because it's the wrong color. So don't let it bother you much, they all think their that right anyway, another similarity they all choose to ignore.

[Galveston1]

Interesting thing about evolution. The theory demands VERY large time spans. I understand that in the sediment layers, we have a layer that contains NO fossil records, and in the next layer, we find fossil records of everything. What happened to that large time lapse when there would have to be an ever increasing number of fossils, both as to kind and number? Where are those doggone intermediate layers? Maybe those of you who are sold on that theory need to go back and make some changes. Again.

[inthebox]

Who says it surprises me? I did not state that! Not even hinted into that direction!
.
I think it is very noteworthy, as - with all my respect for the individual freedom of any individual to believe whatever one prefers to believe - it is necessary to make sure that Church and State for ever stay separated.
;)

So you expect governing officials that have faith in some belief system to be schizophrenic?



Hmmm... do I trust someone who can't even be true to themselves - for the sake of political correctness nonetheless,. versus someone who knows themselves and , is not ashamed to tell you of their beliefs, regardless of what you may think of them.




Oh, I get it you do not want any governing officials to have any faith?




That contradicts fredom of religious expression [ 1st amendment ], doesn't it?