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lews · Mar 22, 2008, 06:12 AM

I have a new house. We put in the well first and had the well guy put in two outdoor faucets (the kind you get at farm supply places - that have drains at the bottom to prevent freezing - the spigot is a lever). The first one is near the well. The second one is up a steep hill at the barn. So this is the order, going up the hill ---- well, faucet, house, faucet.

Here's the problem -- when you cut on the faucet full blast (or even half blast), the pressure switch cuts the pump off. I don't know if it's because of the faucet design (with the drain in it) or the fact that there should be some sort of check valve just before the pressure tank to keep the water from being drawn from the back side of the pressure tank by these outdoor faucets. I've tried slowly opening the faucet to try to get any air our before opening it mid to full way. This helps only marginally. The upper hill faucet seems to be the worst (I don't use the one at the well much).

jlisenbe · Mar 22, 2008, 06:37 AM

"when you cut on the faucet full blast (or even half blast), the pressure switch cuts the pump off."

When the pressure drops to the cut in pressure, does the switch turn the pump back on, or is it staying off until the tank drains? If the pump is simply cutting off, but cuts back on when it's supposed to, I'm not sure what the problem is. Am I missing something?

Something has to be happening at the faucet that is causing you to suspect the pump is cutting off. Rapid pressure drop?? Give a little more information.

speedball1 · Mar 22, 2008, 06:38 AM

The first one is near the well. The second one is up a steep hill at the barn. So this is the order, going up the hill ---- well, faucet, house, faucet.

Looks to me like it's, -----well, faucet, barn, faucet and then the house. Where's the pressure tank in all this? Is this a surface or submersible pump? What's the control box set at? How deep is the well and how high is the hill. I want to know how much work your pump has to do to overcome the back pressure cause by the elevation. (Figure, roughly) 1/2 pound of pressure lost for every foot of elevation the pump has to both pull and push up.) Where's the control bax located? In short we need a lot more information then what you've furnished, I'll wait on your reply, Tom

lews · Mar 22, 2008, 08:24 AM

Sorry for not enough. Let me try again. My whole site it on a fairly steep hill. At the top of the hill is my barn, then 200 ft down or so is my house, the pressure tank is in the crawl space. The switch is a type gray square box with the little metal level on the side. Continuing down the hill another 200' is the well. One of the faucets is at the barn and one is at the well. The pump is submersible - 130' deep. I'd have to guess on the rise from the top of the well to the house, but I'd say 30', then probably another 30 -40' to the barn.

What happens is this: When you open the Barn faucet the pressure switch cuts the pump off. I have to go in a pull up the lever again at the switch to cut it back on. It seems to me that the water coming out of the outdoor faucet drains the pressure tank, dropping the pressure so the switch thinks we've run the well dry and as a safety, cuts is off. The well has 14gpm and I've check the flow in my house and it's 12gpm.

lews · Mar 22, 2008, 08:27 AM

Oh and the pump is 3/4 hp and the static water level is 30'

jlisenbe · Mar 22, 2008, 10:27 AM

As SB pointed out, you will lose a little more than .4# of pressure for each foot of rise. So, you would expect the pressure at the top of the run (the barn?) to be 15 pounds or so less than at the pressure tank since the tank is in the house. I would not think that would be a factor in this problem.

I think you've hit the nail on the head concerning the switch. So the question is, why is your pressure dropping so quickly as to "fool" the switch? The pressure generally has to drop to about 10# below the cut in pressure to activate the safety feature on the switch you are dealing with. Of course, it could be a defective switch, but I would think that would show up when water is used anywhere, not just at the barn faucet.

I would look at the tank first. Is it a galvanized pressure tank or a bladder tank? Have you checked it to see how much water is in the tank (in other words, is it waterlogged?). To do this, press the air valve at the top (if it has one) for a few seconds and see if water comes out. If water comes out, then you have a tank problem. If not, then gently tap on the side from the bottom up to the top, listening for a change in tone to indicate where the water level ends. It should be somewhere around halfway. If it's toward the top, then that is also trouble.

Just a thought. When you open the faucet in the barn, do you get a burst of air and then water, or is it pretty much water from the beginning and no air at all?

lews · Mar 22, 2008, 04:47 PM

I checked the pressure tank and it's fine - which isn't surprising as the house is new. I just tested the two faucets and the same thing happens on both even for the one right next to the well. There's no air spitting, just a good flow for 10-12 seconds and then no water. It's like the pressure switch isn't cutting the pump on when water is pulled from the line before the pressure tank. But I don't understand why it could matter since the whole system is pressurized by the pressure tank. I'm baffled

lews · Mar 22, 2008, 04:49 PM

There's a check valve on some sort to prevent water being pushed back down the well, right? Could the well people have hooked these two faucets before that valve and this somehow cause the problem?

jlisenbe · Mar 22, 2008, 05:07 PM

The check valve should be between the submersible pump and the pressure tank. Really shouldn't enter into this. If the check valve is a problem, the pressure will leak down, usually rather quickly, when there is no demand on the system. If the line to the faucets was hooked up in front of the check valve, then your switch would not work at all. You would get no flow from the tank to the line since the check valve would prevent that kind of backflow.

Check your tank capacity. If you have a typical bladder tank, 40 gallons or so, you should be able to get five or six gallons of water before the pump has to recycle. Check this two or three times and tell us what you get. The fact that you only get 10 seconds of flow from that faucet still makes me want to look at the tank. You have one line going to the tank from the pump and one line leaving the tank to your house, barn, etc. Is that correct?

lews · Mar 24, 2008, 06:06 AM

I see what you mean about the check valve.

But if the tank was the problem, why wouldn't the same thing happen (press. Switch kill the pump) if I turned on the house faucets. I don't understand why the system sees a difference between before the switch (or pressure tank) and after it (the house water).

The pressure tank has only one connection to the system. That is, when I look under the house, there's the black (I think 1") input hose that goes to a "T" connection, where the pressure tank simply "Ts" into the line to the house. These outdoor faucets are connected somewhere underground to the inlet line, but I don't know where.

On a flow test, I got 12 gpm - that is, I cut on the water until the pump cut in, then waited for it to cut off, then ran the water (while measuring it this time) until the pump again cut in, while also tracking the time --- and then calculated the flow rate in gpm.

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2008, 06:31 AM

The only issue I can think of about the faucets is that they are possibly capable of a much higher flow rate than any faucet in the house, especially is they are coming off a 1" line. This would allow them to drop the tank pressure much more quickly than anything in the house.

With the tank, I was actually talking about how many gallons can the tank deliver before the pump has to cut back on, not gpm.

Is the check valve between the faucets and the tank??

lews · Mar 24, 2008, 06:38 AM

If you mean the 2 outdoor faucets, I don't know. There's not one in the crawl space and there's not one that I see at the well head. My guess is that there isn't a check valve.

These outdoor faucets were installed 5 months before the pressure tank and other stuff was installed, since the house hadn't yet been built.

hkstroud · Mar 24, 2008, 07:20 AM

Here is some logic for you to consider. The yard hydrant (faucet) is capable of discharging more water than the well can produce AND the tank can expel at the cut in pressure. In other words when the tank reaches the pump cut in pressure the pump comes on but all of the water from the well is being discharged at the hydrant plus additional water from the tank. Therefore the tank pressure continues to drop until the safety pressure is reached and the pump shuts off. The remedy for this would be to install a valve ahead of the hydrant to limit the volume of the hydrant. Open hydrant and drain tank, manually override safety switch and begin closing the valve until the pump can maintain a pressure above the cut in setting, say 5lbs. Check to see if the hydrant has a means of liminting the volume.

lews · Mar 24, 2008, 07:28 AM

As a down and dirty test, couldn't I put a common hand sprayer nozzle on a 5/8" inch hose attached to the faucet. using it with the sprayer nozzle -- wouldn't this crank down the volume (and increase the pressure).

I have to admit that these faucets are on 1" pipes so they can move a lot of water. I would have thought cranking open the faucet to a partial amount (say halfway) would address that but maybe not.

hkstroud · Mar 24, 2008, 07:45 AM

Yes, as a test to confirm logic. You should have same pressure as you would have at any other faucet and the volume limited by the nozzel. If the hose will fit on hydrant.

jlisenbe · Mar 24, 2008, 04:02 PM

HK has an interesting theory. You can easily test it by turning on the faucet, then watch the tank pressure gauge. It should begin to fall as soon as you turn on the faucet and continue to fall until it gets to the "crash point", 10# below the cut in pressure. You said you are delivering 10 or 12 gpm. If that is from the outside faucet, then it may indeed be more than the pump can deliver.