[MoonlitWaves]

I and some of my other fellow Christians are getting together for a Bible study on Predestination and unconditional election.

I was introduced to Calvinistic beliefs on a different message board. And these are two things in which they base their beliefs. I am having a hard time understanding Predestination and I am not alone. I originally thought upon reading a Calvinists reponses that they were wrong in their belief. But the thing about it is that their beliefs are supported Biblically. Even still I am having a hard time with it.

I cannot understand how predestination and unconditional election do not contradict free will. I know we have free will as there are many verse to support this. But there are also verses that mention predestination and "the elect". I believe that somehow predestination and free will go hand in hand, but my mind is refusing to see the coexistance and is instead wanting to see contradiction. But I know this can't be so because I do not believe the Bible ever contradicts itself. Therefore I am stuck with my lack of understanding.

So I ask you all, if any of you have understanding on predestination and election to please share it. It seems to me that this is one of those difficult to understand things in the Bible, but it could be that I simply am not getting it.

Also, if any of you have any good sites that would also help me then please link them. I would like to gather information to take with me to this Bible study along with the understanding my fellow Christians on this board have as well.

Thank You,
Tara

[miykle]

What an interesting subject;
The way I understand these two principles is:
Predestination, foreknowledge, predetermined, is that God knowing the end from the beginning knew who He would raise up to be His children, then at the appropriate time He held out his hand to them to Come, freewill is weather we come or not, When He thunders some hear the thunder and come to see what all the noise is about but those predestined to be His children hear His voice, His sheep know His voice, those who deliver themselves up to Lord are predestined to be converted into the image of Jesus by the workings, sanctification, of the Holy Ghost.
Unconditional Election means our election into the Body is not conditional to our worthiness or righteousnes but on Gods grace alone, if our election was dependent on us none would be saved, Did Lazarus know he was dead until Jesus called him out??
Blessings <M>

[RickJ]

The key word is cause. While we can admit that God must KNOW in advance, we cannot/should not say that he "destines" any of us.

A fraction of Christians do believe that some are literally "pre-destined". This is not a teaching of Christ, his Apostles or mainstream Christianity.

Here's a lengthier explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestinarianism

Best is the first section then the last section regarding the Reformation.

[miykle]

The key word is cause. While we can admit that God must KNOW in advance, we cannot/should not say that he "destines" any of us.

A fraction of Christians do believe that some are literally "pre-destined". This is not a teaching of Christ, his Apostles or mainstream Christianity.

Here's a lengthier explanation from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Predestinarianism

Best is the first section then the last section regarding the Reformation.

What we are predestined to is to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, when we accept the election of God our "Path" is already predestined, how we walk that path is different for each of us but the "desitnation" is the same, election is a very special invitation of God, not a general invite but targeted at those He foreknew, even as we don't invite all and sundry but those we specificly want to come, but none of it is a foregone conclusion, we can always reject the election, but who would want to do that??
Blessings <M>

[Tj3]

I and some of my other fellow Christians are getting together for a Bible study on Predestination and unconditional election.

I was introduced to Calvinistic beliefs on a different message board. And these are two things in which they base their beliefs. I am having a hard time understanding Predestination and I am not alone. I originally thought upon reading a Calvinists reponses that they were wrong in their belief. But the thing about it is that their beliefs are supported Biblically. Even still I am having a hard time with it.

I cannot understand how predestination and unconditional election do not contradict free will. I know we have free will as there are many verse to support this. But there are also verses that mention predestination and "the elect". I believe that somehow predestination and free will go hand in hand, but my mind is refusing to see the coexistance and is instead wanting to see contradiction. But I know this can't be so because I do not believe the Bible ever contradicts itself. Therefore I am stuck with my lack of understanding.

So I ask you all, if any of you have understanding on predestination and election to please share it. It seems to me that this is one of those difficult to understand things in the Bible, but it could be that I simply am not getting it.

Also, if any of you have any good sites that would also help me then please link them. I would like to gather information to take with me to this Bible study along with the understanding my fellow Christians on this board have as well.

Thank You,
Tara

Tara,

Probably the best resource in refuting the excesses of Calvinism Biblically is a book by Dave Hunt titled "What Love is This?". Dave Hunt put forward the arguments presented by Calvinists and examines them from a scriptural perspective.

I would strongly recommend it for anyone who is studying this topic.

I do not have time to get into detail on this at the moment, but let me say that we do find references to predestination in scripture, and we also see references to freewill and God's foreknowledge. But understanding how these come together in God's perspective is important.

Both are true, but I think that what is often missed in this regard is that God is not trapped by our timeline. He created it. He is outside of time. The way that I describe it is like this. We are living on a timeline, like traffic on a highway. We do not know what is ahead, but when God gives a prophecy, we see it as foretelling what is about to happen further along that timeline or highway. We only know where we are, and where we have been.

But God would be more like an observer above the highway, seeing what is happening behind us and ahead of us at that time. So, when we find God telling us that this is the way that it will be - it is a combination of his foreknowledge, and sovereignty mixed in a way that we cannot understand, because we cannot possible understand what it is like to live outside of time.

Tom

[MoonlitWaves]

What an interesting subject;
The way I understand these two principles is:
Predestination, foreknowledge, predetermined, is that God knowing the end from the begining knew who He would raise up to be His children, then at the appropriate time He held out his hand to them to Come, freewill is weather we come or not, When He thunders some hear the thunder and come to see what all the noise is about but those predestined to be His children hear His voice, His sheep know His voice, those who deliver themselves up to Lord are predestined to be converted into the image of Jesus by the workings, sanctification, of the Holy Ghost.
Unconditional Election means our election into the Body is not conditional to our worthiness or righteousnes but on Gods grace alone, if our election was dependent on us none would be saved, Did Lazarus know he was dead until Jesus called him out ???
Blessings <M>

My dad also said that what is predestined is that those who are saved will be converted into the image of Christ. But it is still unclear for me.

Tell me if I am correct in this assumption... Because God has foreknowledge He knows who will accept His gift of salvation and who will not. Therefore, those He knew would accept His gift are the people He predestined?

Errgg this is confusing for me. It's like I understand but I don't. I can't seem to put it all together.

Let me try this a different way. If God did not choose who He would predestine based upon who He knew would receive salvation, then this must mean He chose some for salvation and some not. Right?

I understand a little about the unconditional election. I understand, believe and agree that we are not worthy of God's grace. I also understand that if it was dependent upon us to come to Him we would not be saved. I understand that He must come to us offering this gift. Therefore, I could say He elects us by way of coming to us with this offer. Correct?
But with that said I still have a question. Does this mean that He chooses to come to some and not others? Does this mean that He doesn't choose/elect some? I ask this because... if He doesn't elect some people then how do they have any hope for salvation? If it is the truth that some will have no hope for receiving salvation then would I be correct in saying that He doesn't come to/elect some because He knows they will refuse Him?

[MoonlitWaves]

Tara,

Probably the best resource in refuting the excesses of Calvinism Biblically is a book by Dave Hunt titled "What Love is This?". Dave Hunt put forward the arguments presented by Calvinists and examines them from a scriptural perspective.

I would strongly recommend it for anyone who is studying this topic.

I do not have time to get into detail on this at the moment, but let me say that we do find references to predestination in scripture, and we also see references to freewill and God's foreknowledge. But understanding how these come together in God's perspective is important.

Both are true, but I think that what is often missed in this regard is that God is not trapped by our timeline. He created it. He is outside of time. The way that I describe it is like this. We are living on a timeline, like traffic on a highway. We do not know what is ahead, but when God gives a prophecy, we see it as foretelling what is about to happen further along that timeline or highway. We only know where we are, and where we have been.

But God would be more like an observer above the highway, seeing what is happening behind us and ahead of us at that time. So, when we find God telling us that this is the way that it will be - it is a combination of his foreknowledge, and sovereignty mixed in a way that we cannot understand, because we cannot possible understand what it is like to live outside of time.

Tom

When you have the time Tom I would really like to hear your understanding on this. Thanks, Tara

[De Maria]

I cannot understand how predestination and unconditional election do not contradict free will.

Answer from a Catholic perspective:

As far as I know, unconditional election is not a Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Church does not address this doctrine.. Therefore, we are free to disbelieve or believe until the Church speaks on the matter.

I don't believe it.

Predestination fis a Catholic doctrine and means that God knew us from the beginning, that He willed us to be saved and that He prepared works for us that we might walk in them, like garments.

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 600

1 Timothy 2 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Ephesians 2 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

But free will means that we can reject God's will and grace for us.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries.

So God doesn't take kindly to our rejecting His saving grace.

Now, unconditional election means that God has elected some who will go to heaven no matter what they do. This is the foundation for the doctrine of absolute assurance of salvation. But Scripture says:

Romans 2 6 Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek. 10 But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[savedsinner7]

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.


Very simply, God knows the beginning from the end. He knows who will turn their hearts to Him and who will reject Him. This is foreknowledge. For those who He knows will turn to Him, He has chosen them to be conformed into the image of Christ. This is the predestination. He still allows the free will choice in choosing Him or not. Once we choose Him, then we are conformed--not before.

[lobrobster]

This really is a fascinating subject! And I'm going to resist the incredible urge I have to respond to your comment that the bible never contradicts itself! :D

After long and serious contemplation on this subject I have accepted a deterministic world/universe. I too, had an incredibly hard time not believing in free will. I am a master of our soul/captain of our fate kind of guy. I believe that whatever the mind can conceive the body can achieve. We do have the power to change our destiny! But...

I have been convinced that determinism and free will CAN co-exist! It gets incredibly complicated and my reasons have nothing to do with the bible (as you can probably guess). So I won't get into them.

I just want to say that you shouldn't let this bother you with respect to free will. Yes, for all intents and purposes free will can and does exist alongside a deterministic/pre-destined world. Good luck!

[miykle]

G'Day ;
Well all this talk about predestination and free will has rekindled an internal debate which I have had on the back burner for quite some time and would appreciate some feed back if you would. Here's how it goes;
If Adam and Eve were excercising their right of free will then they had no sin because the righteous God would never condemn anyone for doing what he designed them to do, however, it was a commandment they received "Don't touch that tree !!" and not a choice, so Eve dissobeyed God Adam went along with it ( probably to keep the peace) then blamed God for it, not free will but a wicked and disobedient heart, which I can find copious amounts of scripture testifying to the wickedness of mens hearts, which is why it must be broken, but not a word about free will.
And so I have come full circle, back to what I understood when I first started to come to grips with predestination, which I would like to point out was a long time before I ever heard of John Calvin and co. which is that, those who are to be His children were determined to be so from the start , Paul said that all the works were finished from the start, and would be raised up and, at the appropriate time, harvested from the vine which is Humanity and grafted into the vine which is Jesus Christ. Now if you stop and consider this you will find it even more wonderful than it first appears, you are Christians, children of the Most High, not by chance or because you decided but because you were planned for by our loving Father, think about that, not just some "oh you'll do I suppose" but a planned for, conceived and raised up purposely to inherit the Fathers Kingdom.
Blessings <M>:rolleyes:

[shygrneyzs]

You asked for some sites that might help you explain Predestination.
Heavens Helpers :: HOME
There are Bible studies on that site that might help asnwer your questions. I, myself, do not believe in Predestination as a Calvinistic teaching, but I do believe that God has predestined, "chosen", His people.

Matthew 23:31; Mark 13:20; John 5:21; John 13:17,18; John 17:6; Acts 4:27,28; Romans 8:28-30; Romans 11:1,2; Ephesains 1:4,5; Ephesians 1:11; 2 Thess 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9,10; 1 Peter 1:1,2; Revelation 17:8; Revelation 17:14; Jeremiah 1:5; Matthew 20:16.

There are many more verses about this. Just remember, "many are called, but few are chosen." What does that confirm to you?

[Curtis Wilson]

We can look at things from two different perspectives. From an earthly or Heavenly perspective. If we look at things from the earthly view, yes, we heard the Gospel and responded to it, we made the decision to get saved. From the Heavenly view, (and this we only learn as we grow in the Lord,) man left in his own sinful condition would never seek, or want God. If it was not for the Lord revealing himself to us we would not come unto him, as Jesus said, "Every one who hears the Father, and is taught by him, cometh unto me" (John 6:45)
We need to see things from God's perspective as that is were reality is. Do not look at the things seen, but at the things not seen! Begin to exercise your spiritual senses, not physical senses.

Curtis