[dannylee_dl]

I want to know what the situation would have been like for the greek people and other international communities if the default had been averted.

[Curlyben]

Realistically, very little will actually happen or change, just lurching from one crises to another..

[paraclete]

That depends on whether they accept the demands of their creditors, or are able to modify them.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33373390

As it stands there would be a higher VAT imposed on most commodities
There would be later retirement raising the age to 67
The pension subsidy would be abolished, this would affect poorer pensioners most
The VAT would be imposed on the Greek Islands
The banks would be provided with liquidity and could continue to operate
Greece would stay in the eurozone
Greece would need more bailouts in the future

The basic problem is the level of tax evasion and avoidence as a result the government is not self funding and has not been for many years. As a result it has amassed massive debt.

They have already faced reduction of public service salaries, reduction of public service positions, cuts in pensions, sell off of state assets, changes in VAT and various other conditions some of which they have failed to implement

[tomder55]

Danny ,Robert Kaplan argues that it was a terrible mistake to admit Greece into the EU . But since they did ,there is much more at stake than monetary concerns at play .Greece was critical to the Cold War policy of Soviet containment. It is no less so in the age of Putin.

Russia may be helping to inflame Syriza’s internal divisions in the hope that Greece’s ruling party cannot make the difficult concessions necessary to stay in the eurozone. If Greece does leave the eurozone, the economic aftershocks to the domestic economy could reduce it to a semi-failed state that, along with the dismemberment and weakening of Ukraine, will seriously weaken Europe’s geopolitical position vis-à-vis Russia.
If this happens not only will the Iberian states of Spain and Portugal be more susceptible to euro-debt contagion, but Balkan states with weak institutions and fragile economies like Albania, Bulgaria and Romania will be in a more exposed position. While those states were never part of the eurozone, the spectacle of a major Balkan country pivotally loosening its ties with the West, even as Russia appears momentarily ascendant in the region, will be sobering in the extreme.

The Greek Crisis Is About More Than Money - WSJ



That being said ; I think it would be a mistake to prop up Greece . I don't think that would stop the inevitable collapse because the Greek model is fundamentally flawed ;and propping it up would not fix it . The fact is that no one knows how to keep Greece solvent .

[paraclete]

I think we know how to keep Greece solvent however the Greek people don't have the will to do what is needed, as to paying off the amassed debt that needs a very long term solution. Greek assets need to be sold off and the money used to pay down debt. Greece needs to leave the EU because it cannot abide by the rules and play a meaninful economic part and I think Europe will be strengthened by their exit, it won't be going through this farse every few months. The fact is the greek lifestyle of la dolce vita has to change. The EU model of accepting eastern european countries is nonsense.

[smoothy]

I know a lot of Europeans are disgusted they are bailing them out yet again... ( I just got back from a Month in Italy) EVERY Italian I met was absolutely disgusted after the first bailout... and completely indignant about the next several.

Particularly since Greece should not have even been allowed into the EU in the first place because they made wholesale fraud about their National financial statistics and when they applied for the EU which has come out and has been getting a lot of press coverage in Europe (in Italy anyway).

[paraclete]

And they still think they can cheat the system. There should be consequences for not living up to the agreements but with a common currency they cannot devalue and make things more expensive in Greece so additional taxation is the only way, but you can't tax your way out of recession. The lesson that no one owes you a living comes hard. There are too many creditors in the mix and eventually they will be played off against each other but who would want to take over the entire debt. a one time levy on the population should do it, Say E20,000 would even things out a lot. Greeks seem to have lot of money in banks so freeze their funds until they pay up

[tomder55]

"Socialism works until you run out of other peoples money". (Thatcher)

No matter what the deal is ,why would you trust the Marxist Syriza government to execute it ? However ; do you want Russian naval bases on both ends of the Black Sea ? If you haven't noticed yet ;Czar Vlad the conqueror sees himself as the self appointed defender of the Orthodox faith ,and Greece is an Orthodox nation. See the map I provided . The nations along the Black Sea are being absorbed slowly into a greater Novorossiya . That would be great revenge for NATO's peeling off Kosovo .

The US should be taking a lesson from this . 25 years ago Greek debt was 75% of the Greek economy ......about what the US debt is now (I say about because we don't really know . Emperor Zero's Treasury dept has been reporting the same exact number for weeks now ).In 25 years, U.S. debt levels are projected to reach 156 percent of the economy, which Greece had in 2012. The debt clock is ticking .

[paraclete]

You still have time and the ability to save yourselves Tom but it means a change in direction. A pull back in your military and you have to deal with poverty. I wouldn't worry about Putin as much as you need to worry about the weight of your own processes. Capitalism doesn't lead to utopia any more than socialism does

[tomder55]

not looking for utopia . That's a Marxist dream. I'll settle for liberty . Happy Independence Day America !!

[paraclete]

Have fun Tom

[tomder55]

People who found this post inaccurate:

How do I rate comments on a discussion board ? I often find comments inaccurate . Then again I wouldn't rate an opinion. I'd engage the poster in debate.

[paraclete]

This is a place for opinions, hopefully based on facts, but if we didn't have differing opinions we wouldn't need political parties

Here are some facts

World - BBC News

The greeks have voted OXI! And now they enter a new phase

[tomder55]

and which stock market is tanking ? ..... The Chinese market ...

Nearly quarter of Chinese investors ‘suffer over 50 per cent losses’ as stock market slumps, survey suggests | South China Morning Post

[paraclete]

Yes Tom that's what overheated markets do, the price of capitalism, but it really doesn't have anything to do with Greece

[tickle]

This is a place for opinions, hopefully based on facts, but if we didn't have differing opinions we wouldn't need political parties

Here are some facts

World - BBC News

The greeks have voted OXI! And now they enter a new phase

Their banks open and they get their benefits now. Now we see how the NO vote plays out.

I think we know how to keep Greece solvent however the Greek people don't have the will to do what is needed, as to paying off the amassed debt that needs a very long term solution. Greek assets need to be sold off and the money used to pay down debt. Greece needs to leave the EU because it cannot abide by the rules and play a meaninful economic part and I think Europe will be strengthened by their exit, it won't be going through this farse every few months. The fact is the greek lifestyle of la dolce vita has to change. The EU model of accepting eastern european countries is nonsense.

Yes, well stated para !

[cdad]

How do I rate comments on a discussion board ? I often find comments inaccurate . Then again I wouldn't rate an opinion. I'd engage the poster in debate.

Tom, one of the older skins seems to allow rating all posts. The newer skin does not and can not rate posts in this section. It can only do so on the Q&A side.

[talaniman]

This is where the Greeks can turn a corner, by solving a very old problem,

Primary Greek tax evaders are the professional classes | Business | The Guardian

[paraclete]

The guys running the place are tax evaders go
Figure

[tomder55]

nahhh .the answer is to privatize all government owned businesses ....,then institute a national flat tax . Then sell all those Greek islands to Trump to build resort hotels ,casinos ,and golf courses . That should keep him busy and out of the race for President .... Kills 2 birds with 1 stone.