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    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #141

    Nov 12, 2013, 10:12 AM
    AP Investigation: Obama's green energy drive comes with an unadvertised environmental cost

    CORYDON, Iowa — The hills of southern Iowa bear the scars of America's push for green energy: The brown gashes where rain has washed away the soil. The polluted streams that dump fertilizer into the water supply.

    Even the cemetery that disappeared like an apparition into a cornfield.

    It wasn't supposed to be this way.

    With the Iowa political caucuses on the horizon in 2007, presidential candidate Barack Obama made homegrown corn a centerpiece of his plan to slow global warming. And when President George W. Bush signed a law that year requiring oil companies to add billions of gallons of ethanol to their gasoline each year, Bush predicted it would make the country "stronger, cleaner and more secure."

    But the ethanol era has proven far more damaging to the environment than politicians promised and much worse than the government admits today.

    As farmers rushed to find new places to plant corn, they wiped out millions of acres of conservation land, destroyed habitat and polluted water supplies, an Associated Press investigation found.

    Five million acres of land set aside for conservation — more than Yellowstone, Everglades and Yosemite National Parks combined — have vanished on Obama's watch.

    Landowners filled in wetlands. They plowed into pristine prairies, releasing carbon dioxide that had been locked in the soil.

    Sprayers pumped out billions of pounds of fertilizer, some of which seeped into drinking water, contaminated rivers and worsened the huge dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico where marine life can't survive.

    The consequences are so severe that environmentalists and many scientists have now rejected corn-based ethanol as bad environmental policy. But the Obama administration stands by it, highlighting its benefits to the farming industry rather than any negative impact.

    Farmers planted 15 million more acres of corn last year than before the ethanol boom, and the effects are visible in places like south central Iowa.

    The hilly, once-grassy landscape is made up of fragile soil that, unlike the earth in the rest of the state, is poorly suited for corn. Nevertheless, it has yielded to America's demand for it.

    "They're raping the land," said Bill Alley, a member of the board of supervisors in Wayne County, which now bears little resemblance to the rolling cow pastures shown in postcards sold at a Corydon pharmacy.
    But hey, full steam ahead anyway, right?
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #142

    Nov 12, 2013, 10:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by talaniman View Post
    I hate the ethanol subsidy, but the financial transition away from them is a financial disaster. The Chinese energy model is but a warning.
    It's cheaper to just write a check to corn farmers to not grow, than to support this program.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,325, Reputation: 10855
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    #143

    Nov 12, 2013, 11:12 AM
    The current set up is unsustainable for large farmers, and impossible for what's left of small famers.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #144

    Nov 12, 2013, 02:22 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    It's cheaper to just write a check to corn farmers to not grow, than to support this program.
    sounds like you have the conditions for another dust bowl over there, better get those agricultural subsidies moving quick
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #145

    Nov 12, 2013, 05:30 PM
    over production with no crop rotation ...... yup .
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #146

    Nov 16, 2013, 04:50 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    over production with no crop rotation ...... yup .
    and you try to tell us how to do it, I bet you are still plowing down hill
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #147

    Nov 16, 2013, 07:13 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    and you try to tell us how to do it, I bet you are still plowing down hill
    Uh no, we are quite skilled at contour plowing and soil conservation in my part of the country, and thus far we don't allow the feds to shut down crop production for a fish no one cares about a la the Central California Valley.
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #148

    Nov 16, 2013, 02:06 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by speechlesstx View Post
    Uh no, we are quite skilled at contour plowing and soil conservation in my part of the country, and thus far we don't allow the feds to shut down crop production for a fish no one cares about a la the Central California Valley.
    well that's good to know
    cdad's Avatar
    cdad Posts: 12,700, Reputation: 1438
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    #149

    Nov 16, 2013, 06:56 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by tomder55 View Post
    it's also dumber than dirt . It takes more energy to produce than it yields .
    That doesnt scare me as much as the by product of it. That would be GMO corn. That stuff is dangerous.

    Monsanto's GMO Corn Linked To Organ Failure, Study Reveals

    Critics slam Obama for "protecting" Monsanto - CBS News

    Monsanto Co Contributions to Federal Candidates | OpenSecrets
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #150

    Nov 17, 2013, 04:42 AM
    Monsanto has some of the best lobbyists in the business, so they get what they want, regardless of the political party "in power".
    paraclete's Avatar
    paraclete Posts: 2,706, Reputation: 173
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    #151

    Nov 17, 2013, 05:08 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Monsanto has some of the best lobbyists in the business, so they get what they want, regardless of the political party "in power".
    of course the capitalist base has it's influences otherwise known as corruption
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #152

    Nov 18, 2013, 07:45 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by paraclete View Post
    of course the capitalist base has it's influences otherwise known as corruption
    As does every other system.
    NeedKarma's Avatar
    NeedKarma Posts: 10,635, Reputation: 1706
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    #153

    Nov 18, 2013, 08:09 AM
    As does every other system.
    Not nearly to the extent that you've allowed it to get to.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #154

    Nov 18, 2013, 08:23 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by NeedKarma View Post
    Not nearly to the extent that you've allowed it to get to.
    Spare me, we're not stupid.
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #155

    Nov 18, 2013, 08:32 AM
    Hello again,

    Certainly, no one extraordinary catastrophic weather event can be attributed to global warming, but when the world has a series of them, back to back to back, you got to go, hmmmmm...

    At least SOME of us do..

    excon
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,325, Reputation: 10855
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    #156

    Nov 18, 2013, 08:42 AM
    Tornadoes in the Midwest in November? You got my attention because this was unusual, and a whopper.

    Washington IL tornado kills 1, wipes out neighborhoods; 5 others die statewide in Midwest tornado outbreak | abc7chicago.com

    Whether you believe in climate change or not, you better believe in Mother Nature.
    speechlesstx's Avatar
    speechlesstx Posts: 1,111, Reputation: 284
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    #157

    Nov 18, 2013, 08:42 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon View Post
    Hello again,

    Certainly, no one extraordinary catastrophic weather event can be attributed to global warming, but when the world has a series of them, back to back to back, you gotta go, hmmmmm....

    At least SOME of us do..

    excon
    Weather happens. We had a wonderfully mild summer here, not a single tornado to worry about and plenty of rain, although we did have an expensive hail storm. It happens.
    smoothy's Avatar
    smoothy Posts: 25,490, Reputation: 2853
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    #158

    Nov 18, 2013, 09:25 AM
    The True bleieves of The Cult of Global Warming blames everything on global Warming... anything that deviates a mere fraction of a degree from a median average temprature... in EITHER direction.

    As well as every other weather event that's been happening longer than man has been walking this planet.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,325, Reputation: 10855
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    #159

    Nov 18, 2013, 10:11 AM
    And I suppose a rugged, self made, hard working man, will need no help when your whole neighbor hood gets wiped out by Mother Nature when she does her thing on YOUR head.

    That's great!
    tomder55's Avatar
    tomder55 Posts: 1,742, Reputation: 346
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    #160

    Nov 18, 2013, 10:36 AM
    Haiyan was indeed a strong cyclone . But the strongest on record occurred in 961 Typhoon Nancy with 215 mph winds . Hurricane Sandy's surge topped out at about 13 feet in New York City and northern New Jersey . What was unusual about it was the track it took at the end . A 13 ft surge is not that unusual . Running inland where it did ,instead of taking the typical path ,roughly following the Gulf Stream was unusual. Here in NY there is not a deep sand base to absorb the power of the storm,so the 13 ft travelled up a bedrock base .That is why it caused so much damage.
    As for cyclones , it may have been unusual for the Philippines to get a direct hit . But throughout history more humans have died in places like Bangladesh from typhoon activity .

    1582 ,one hit that killed 200,000 people . 1767... 30,000 people .1822 50,000 people . There are many others including the infamous 1970 Bhola cyclone that killed over 500,000 people (think George Harrison's The Concert for Bangladesh) .
    So it is a dubious claim to link storms that happened in the last couple decades with a specific cause besides what is a natual occurrence . Certainly there were no SUVs in 961AD

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