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Frustrated1024 · Aug 7, 2013, 01:14 AM

I have an outlet that has 2 white wires, 2 black wires and 2 red wires. Two set of 3 wires coming into the outlet box (plus ground wires of course).

I was replacing old and tired outlets along our kitchen counter as the old ones were discolored when I came across this one. I thought I remembered how they were originally but I keep tripping the breaker when I turn it back on.

What is the correct way to rewire this outlet...

WallyHelps · Aug 7, 2013, 05:03 AM

Originally, was one outlet hot all the time and one controlled by a switch? If so, then you need to break the jumper between the two brass screws (see photo) and hook the blacks to one screw and the reds to the other screw. The whites would go to the silver screws (don't break jumper there).

Of course, this is only a guess based on what you've mentioned.

Hope this helps,
WallyH

hkstroud · Aug 7, 2013, 05:34 AM

What you have in that box is two circuits sharing a neutral. Red is one circuit, black is another circuit and the white is the neutral.
The outlet could have been wired in either of two ways. One circuit could have been used to power the outlet and the other just passing through. The other way would be that one circuit powered of the top half of the outlet and the other circuit powered the bottom half.

Either way, the whites would have been connected to together and connected to the neutral side of the outlet (silver screws). That could have been done by connecting the two whites together and adding a pig tail, then connecting the pig tail to the outlet. Or it could have been done by connecting the two white wires to directly to the two silver screws.

If one circuit was just passing through this box, one set of wires either red or black, would have been connected together and not connected to the outlet. The other set, either red or black, would have been connected together and to the outlet. Either buy connecting them together with a wire nut and adding a pig tail, with the pig tail connected to the outlet, or by connecting each wire directly to the hot (brass screws) side of the outlet.

If the old outlet was wired such that one circuit powered the top half and the other powered the lower half, the tab between the two brass screws would have been removed. The black wires would have been wired together with a pig tail and pig tail connected to one brass screw, the red would have been connected together with a pig tail and the pig tail connected to the other brass screw. Very important to REMOVE THE TAB BETWEEN THE TWO BRASS SCREWS.

Do you have the old outlet? If so, was the tab between the hot (brass screws) side removed?

hkstroud · Aug 7, 2013, 05:36 AM

Sorry Wally,

A switch loop would not have tripped the breaker. Outlet would have not functioned properly but would not have tripped breaker.

WallyHelps · Aug 7, 2013, 04:47 PM

Harold,
I agree with your full explanation, but I'd like to know how your last paragraph differs from what I said. I'm always anxious to learn something new. Are you saying that shorting the hots from 2 circuits won't blow a breaker?

I guess if the always-hot and switched hot were from the same circuit there wouldn't be a problem, but I was not assuming they were from the same circuit.

Thanks for clarifying...
WallyH

hkstroud · Aug 7, 2013, 06:07 PM

I guess if the always-hot and switched hot were from the same circuit there wouldn't be a problem

That is correct, it wouldn't trip the breaker but the switch would be ineffective unless the tab was removed.

However, if it was a split receptical on two circuits with one half switched there would be a 2-wire cable to the switch.

All indications are that this is two circuits sharing a neutral. Now, that could be wired with split receptacles with one circuit serving the top and the other serving the bottom. Or it could be wired where one circuit serves one receptacle and the other serving the next receptacle down the line. In the first case the tab between the hot terminals would be removed. In the second case only one circuit would be connected the outlet and the other just passing through.

Basically, Frustrated will have to decide how he wants the outlet to function.

Frustrated1024 · Aug 8, 2013, 02:35 AM

I should have been a little clearer in my explanation. In the breaker panel this outlet is controlled by 2-15 amp breakers tied together with a clip.

I have two lines coming into the outlet box (14/3). The tab on the brass side has been removed.

The only things I can find in the house NOT working with this outlet out of commission is a GFI in the main bathroom and a GFI in the ensuite.

Frustrated1024 · Aug 8, 2013, 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

What you have in that box is two circuits sharing a neutral. Red is one circuit, black is another circuit and the white is the neutral.
The outlet could have been wired in either of two ways. One circuit could have been used to power the outlet and the other just passing through. The other way would be that one circuit powered of the top half of the outlet and the other circuit powered the bottom half.

Either way, the whites would have been connected to together and connected to the neutral side of the outlet (silver screws). That could have been done by connecting the two whites together and adding a pig tail, then connecting the pig tail to the outlet. Or it could have been done by connecting the two white wires to directly to the two silver screws.

If one circuit was just passing through this box, one set of wires either red or black, would have been connected together and not connected to the outlet. The other set, either red or black, would have been connected together and to the outlet. Either buy connecting them together with a wire nut and adding a pig tail, with the pig tail connected to the outlet, or by connecting each wire directly to the hot (brass screws) side of the outlet.

If the old outlet was wired such that one circuit powered the top half and the other powered the lower half, the tab between the two brass screws would have been removed. The black wires would have been wired together with a pig tail and pig tail connected to one brass screw, the red would have been connected together with a pig tail and the pig tail connected to the other brass screw. Very important to REMOVE THE TAB BETWEEN THE TWO BRASS SCREWS.

Do you have the old outlet? If so, was the tab between the hot (brass screws) side removed?

I should have been a little clearer in my explanation.

This outlet box has two 14/3 wires going to it and in the breaker panel it is controlled by two 15 amp breakers tied together with a clip.

The only other things in the house not working due to this is a GFI in the Bathroom and a GFI in the ensuite.

WallyHelps · Aug 8, 2013, 04:23 AM

I'll have to defer to Harold, but having the breakers tied together sounds strange to me.

Good luck,
WallyH

hkstroud · Aug 8, 2013, 05:17 AM

Wally,

Having the breakers of a multi-wire circuit tied together is a code requirement of the last two or three code cycles. For personnel safety. Prevents you from turning off one breaker and thinking you have turned off all the power to the box, when in fact the other circuit is still live.

Frustrated,

You said that you are tripping the breaker. I assume that is what you mean, not that things don't work when you restore power.

If this outlet is the first outlet on the circuit, it can be a split receptacle and then serve the bath GFIs. If it is a kitchen counter outlet it must also be a GFI, which cannot be split.

If the GFIs are the first thing on the circuits, say one GFI on each circuit, the outlet cannot be split. It could be GFI protected by one of the other GFIs but would be on one circuit or the other. Therefore the outlet itself could be a non-GFI

If the outlet is not the first thing on the circuit it makes one wonder why you have 3-wire cable both in and out.

If, by some chance, you mean things simply don't work when you restore power, of course check the GFIs in the baths and also check for any GFIs on the exterior and in any garage.

For diagnostic purposes, wire black to black, red to red and white to white. Put the outlet in your pocket and restore power. If breakers still trip that would indicate that there is another problem down the line. Don't forget, depending on what code the wiring was originally done under, there may be other outlets outside, in a garage or in a basement on these circuits.

Let us know what you find.