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troy00 · Jun 16, 2013, 07:53 PM

Ok guys.. I'm going to try and explain this as best as I can. I'm remodeling the kitchen. I have torn down my ceiling to added recessed lights. OK.. original setup:

One kitchen light fixture in kitchen, looks to be all original wiring, house built in 1970's. Wires that run into the light fixture is one 14-2 wire (labeled feed on joist) and another 14-2 (labeled switch). The one 14-2 wire going on to the rest of the circuit.

What I would like to do:

Remove the existing light fixture and put in 4 or 5 cans in it's place. I would like to run if off the same switch it's currently there, and keep the 14-2 wire that is going out to the rest of the circuit.
Current wiring setup is:
All whites nutted together. Black from switch nutted to black from light fixture. Black from feed nutted to black from wire going out to rest of circuit. And all grounds nutted together.

As a small test tried to wire two recessed lights up. One in the same location as the original fixture, and another a few feet away.

Ok.. here's where it gets interesting.. at least for me. I *thought* that the 14-2 marked feed carried the power, and the 14-2 marked switch, was just that.. a switch. However I have since learned that the switch is also carrying power. If I take a meter to the 14-2 marked feed, I get 120... and if I take a meter to 14-2 marked switch (with switch turned on of course) I get 120 from that as well.
I see examples where I could wire with 14-2 if power is going to the switch first, then to the rest of the lights. I also see examples where if power source is going to "light-1", then 14-3 wire in between the rest of the cans, then 14-2 back to the switch.
But it seems as though I have both examples combined.. power coming into the light-1 from the feed wire.. and power going into switch and then to the light when switch is turned on.
Can anybody possibly help me with this?

ma0641 · Jun 16, 2013, 08:07 PM

What you have is normal for a switch loop. Hot at ceiling black feeds the switch through 2 wires. White to switch ftom hot nlack should be marked with black tape and black from switch should go to the light black. The 14/2 to 14/3 scenario you note is for 3 way switches. Wire all the lights in parallel, black to black, white to white and then use the switch loop to intercept power at the first black wire and then to the light. You will only have 1 switch and this may not meet code if you have 2 kitchen entrances

hkstroud · Jun 16, 2013, 08:58 PM

All whites nutted together. Black from switch nutted to black from light fixture. Black from feed nutted to black from wire going out to rest of circuit. And all grounds nutted together.

Guess what, that's incorrect.

Connect the black of the source to the black of the cable going out to some other place and to the white of the cable going to the switch. Put a piece of black tape on the white to the switch to mark it as hot.

Connect the white of the source cable to the white of the cable going to some other place and to the white going to the new fixtures and to the white of this fixture.

Connect the black from the switch cable to the black of the cable going to the new fixtures and to the black of this fixture.

troy00 · Jun 16, 2013, 09:15 PM

Thanks for your input... however.. when I say how it's "currently wired"... I mean it's wired as it has always been... like for the past 30 years. I just basically put everything back to how it was originally since I had to get light back in the room.

My other question is.. when you say source.. which one is source in this case.. I basically have two hot wires going into the light.. the "feed" and the switch (when flipped on)

hkstroud · Jun 17, 2013, 05:44 AM

Do you have only two 2-wire cables or do you have three 2-wire cables?

troy00 · Jun 17, 2013, 06:19 AM

All together I have three 2-wire cables. Two coming into the light (labeled on the ceiling joist from when house was built I'm guessing, as "feed" and "switch") I then have one 2-wire cable leaving the light to go to the rest of the circuit.

donf · Jun 17, 2013, 07:26 AM

Okay,

To begin with you need to understand what you have been told.

If you have identified the feed cable, then the Black on the feed cable is connected to the white going to the switch.

The black coming from the switch will connect to the black that feeds the rest of the circuit.

If and Only If that black wire is for the lights. If it is for any other purpose, then you would need to connect the black supply wire, the black for the additional circuitry and the white to the switch.

Now the black from the switch will be the supply for the lighting phase of this circuit.

The remaining whites (Supply, Additional circuit and lights) would be connected together. Under no circumstances do you connect the white going to the switch with the rest of the whites.

And make sure you mark the white going to the switch with black bands at both ends.

troy00 · Jun 17, 2013, 07:49 AM

OK.. I have another question. I just looked at the switch for the light. It part of a small bank of switches in the kitchen area. In that bank of switches... all the whites are connected together and going to the switch that actually controls that light is two blacks. So, I don't think I can very well connect the black supply wire to the white switch if the other end of the white switch is nutted with other whites.
I apologize for not make this more clear in original post, but I didn't know at the time of posting.

ma0641 · Jun 17, 2013, 09:41 AM

You can't have 2 hots going to the light. If one was switched, the light would still stay on. And, if the white was switched with a hot black it would trip the breaker. I still think you have a switch loop with a possible pigtail to an unswitched outlet or another switch. Would not work if all the whites were connected to a switch circuit as it would cause a dead short. Something does not match up to a switch circuit.

troy00 · Jun 17, 2013, 10:09 AM

As a test.. I tried this:

If I ONLY connect the "feed" to the light, and leave the switch line disconnected.. the light will constantly stay on, as you'd expect.
And.. if I completely take the "feed" line out (disconnected) and just connect the light to the switch line ONLY.. the light acts as it should.. as in if you flip the switch on, the light will go on, if you flip switch off, the light will go off.

hkstroud · Jun 17, 2013, 11:34 AM

OK, things you have told us appear to be contradictory. Notice that I said appear contradictory, not that they are.

At first it appeared that you had power coming into the ceiling box on one cable and going out to some other location on another cable. That, with a switch loop to the switch (3rd cable).

Now it appears you have power coming in to the ceiling box on one 2-wire cable and going out on the second 2-wire cable. In other words the power is just passing through the box. Power for the light itself is being fed from the switch.

This arrangement is probably the result of changes that have been made in the past. There may have been a good reason for doing it this way, there may not.

Connect the black and white of the "feed " cable to the black and white of the other cable, not the "switch" cable. Tuck these wires up in the box and out of the way. At this time everything should be working except the light.

Connect the black of the "switch" cable to the black of the light fixture and to the black of the cable going to the can lights you are installing. Connect the white of the "switch" cable to the white of the light fixture and to the white of the cable going to the can lights. Switch should turn on the light fixture and the can lights.

Post back when you have done this.

troy00 · Jun 17, 2013, 01:08 PM

Ok.. I will try this and post back. Just from reading what you wrote though... it does seem to make sense that the line labeled "feed" is more of a "pass through" as you put it. What you wrote here sounds the most promising. I think I was just more confused on how I had two "hots" coming through and couldn't figure that out.

So.. the way it's wired now.. which is the way it's been wired for years as far as I can tell... is..
"All whites nutted together. Black from switch nutted to black from light fixture. Black from feed nutted to black from wire going out to rest of circuit. And all grounds nutted together."

Does that sound like it could be a "pass through"? Thanks a million!

hkstroud · Jun 17, 2013, 01:45 PM

Yes, but I would not have connected the neutral (white) from the switch to the neutral of the cables passing through. Doesn't hurt anything but confuses the issue.

troy00 · Jun 17, 2013, 08:19 PM

Ok.. I did as you said.. and everything seems to be working fine. I connected to the "feed" to the line that goes out to the rest of the circuit, and the rest of the circuit has power. Then I connected the switch line to the lights and they are working fine too. I only have two lights
hooked up currently, but it shouldn't be a big deal to connect the rest of them now.

Ok.. now if you don't mind.. I have another question. That first set up cans you just helped me with is just part of the lighting project. There is another fan/light off a separate switch that I want to take down and put 4 or 5 cans in place of that. Everything (both switches) are on the same circuit.
So... the light fixture I just took out to replace with the cans (the one you just helped me with) could hold two 75 watt bulbs.
The ceiling fan on the other switch has a light kit on it. It can actually hold 5 light bulbs, plus the power for the ceiling fan.
So.. all that is on the same circuit. So, I was taking out the light fixture (that holds two bulbs) with 5 cans (the one you just helped me with). And I'm replacing the fan/light with 4 or 5 cans. Like I said.. they're all on the same circuit, but different switches. So, to avoid overloading the circuit, I'm putting in LED lights. The cans themselves are LED ONLY cans, rated at 15 watt max. So there is no chance of someone down the line putting in a normal screw in type 60+w bulb. So.. simple math 10 cans times 15w LED lights = 150w. That's WAY less then what I am/was currently drawing with the original light fixture and fan with light kit.
My questions is.. am I right to assume that this should be fine without having to run a separate circuit? I had asked an electrician this before and he seemed to think it would be OK... but I figured I'd ask your opinion as well.

In any event... thanks for you help with everything so far!

hkstroud · Jun 17, 2013, 08:57 PM

I, of course, have no way of knowing what else in on that circuit, other than what you have described. If I follow what you have done so far you have 4 or 5 light fixtures on the circuit, plus what ever is on the "pass thru cable".

Now you are taking down a fan/light fixture and replacing with LED lights. I don't know how many amps the fan of the fan/light kit pulled but it will certainly be a lot more than the LED lights and would be more than incandescent bulbs should they be used to replace the LEDs.

You have a 15 amp circuit. Most likely that "pass through cable" services another light fixture. A 60 watt light bulb pulls 1/2 amp. A 15 watt LED pulls 0.125 amps. You could have as many as 30, 60 watt light bulbs on that circuit.

It will be just fine.