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abregok · Mar 25, 2013, 09:55 PM

Hello, I'm hoping someone can help me.

I'm the top floor of a condo unit, and my HOA has accused my bathroom contractors of pushing grout or concrete down my kitchen sink, which clogged up the kitchen sinks of my neighbors below. Also, the shower of my neighbor directly below me was pushing forth black sludge from the drain. We have the same floorplan.

My confusion with this is that my brand new kitchen sink hasn't been hooked up yet. The sink is new, but the angle stops are probably 15 years old. The plumber who tried to hook up my sink told me I needed two new ones, as they were so bad when he turned them on with the sink hooked up, water sprayed directly out and they dripped when closed. So, he didn't hook it up to the water until I could arrange for the building to turn the water off. I procrastinated and didn't get it done. Now, my HOA has accused my bathroom plumbing contractors of using the kitchen sink to shove down building materials.

Could my plumbing contractors realistically shove 20 pounds of concrete-like building materials down my kitchen sink with the broken angle stops and not have the cabinets below the sink get wet and the trap and kitchen pipes remain clean and dry?

I had it checked by a plumber, but I'm not getting straight answers othe than the trap is totally clean and that a clog would have been in the verticle pipe.

Krista

joypulv · Mar 26, 2013, 04:43 AM

Yes, I think it's quite possible that the neighbors are suffering from the actions of your bathroom installer. I'm not sure why you think your cabinet has to be wet as evidence of what is going on downstairs. If you are the top unit, and the materials in the clog are known, then it has to be you (unless someone went up on the roof and put stuff down a vent that goes straight down the stack).
Even if the kitchen valves were in the off position when they put stuff down the drain, they could have poured grout and concrete from buckets that had water in them too, from the bathroom faucet. Why would they do that? Cleaning their mixing buckets before they dried, I'll bet. Maybe 20 lbs is an exaggeration, but that's not the point.

massplumber2008 · Mar 26, 2013, 08:02 AM

If contractors poured a bucket or buckets of water with grout, plaster or cement AND no water was turned on to wash the stuff down the sink you would see a serious residue up in your kitchen sink and/or kitchen sink strainer in most cases!

However, the fact remains that someone could have poured stuff down the drain and cleaned up after themselves, but that seems a little far-fetched to me!

I'll tell you, I think it is pretty bold when a HOA or building superintendent or maintenance worker make statements like, "your workers clogged our drains"...

Isn't it just as likely that the drains are getting old and clogged.. maybe?

In other words, did they bring you a chunk of grout, plaster or concrete from the drains downstairs? If not, how can they be so darn sure that it was these materials!

Here is what I would do:

I would tell the HOA that you will talk to each contractor that worked in your house and flat out ask them if they or their helpers made a mistake. Then, ask the contractors directly if this could have happened. If they say NO, there is no way this could have been caused by our expeienced workers (most workers with experience know not to do these things), then the issue is back to the HOA and the fact that their drains are clogged... make them prove otherwise! If your contractor says, well yeah, could have been my inexperienced helper, I suppose... well, then that contractor may have to pony up and pay the bill (good luck with that).

Anyway, let the HOA say what they want, but until they show up with chunks of grout I don't see that they have a case here!

Mark

hkstroud · Mar 26, 2013, 10:07 AM

I am in complete agreement with Mark.

People seem to want to think because work is being done in one place, it is the cause of a problem in another. Only shows their lack of understanding about how things work. While we certainly do know the layout of the plumbing, it is highly unlikely that the drain plumbing for the shower is connected to the drain plumbing for the kitchen sink before it reaches the main sewer line. People don't usually put bathrooms right next to the kitchen.

The fact that the shower drain is is backing up indicates that the main drain is blocked.

The HOA attitude makes me think of story a computer geek that told me. He went a woman's house to fix her computer. The next day she called saying that her clothes washer wouldn't work. Since he had worked on her computer he must have done something wrong and messed up her washer.

Because you don't know what's wrong or what cause a problem doesn't make it my fault. My wife is the only one that is allow to think like that.

joypulv · Mar 26, 2013, 10:47 AM

My apologies to all plumbers. When she says they found '20 pounds of concrete-like building materials' in a drain, I assumed it had to be related to her recent job. (We don't really know that it isn't.)
One question would be where they found it and what evidence they have that it was 'building materials.' Such as a picture. And a drawing of the kitchen/bath drain arrangement. Also a timeline. She says she put off the kitchen job but doesn't say for how long, and when this clog happened.

hkstroud · Mar 26, 2013, 12:33 PM

When she says they found '20 pounds of concrete-like building materials' in a drain,

That wasn't said.

What was said was a question.

Could my plumbing contractors realistically shove 20 pounds of concrete like building materials down my kitchen sink with the broken angle stops and not have the cabinets below the sink get wet and the trap and kitchen pipes remain clean and dry?

The answer to that question is. Realistically, NO.

This is almost but not quite the same thing as "You worked on my computer so you must have broken my washer."

joypulv · Mar 26, 2013, 02:53 PM

I did say IF. We don't even know if it's only a 2 story building!
I don't think it's fair to compare this to the computer and the washer.
Sure, HOAs can accuse for no good reason, but they might be right too, and until Krista answers back, why are we fighting?

abregok · Mar 26, 2013, 06:34 PM

You all may help me sleep tonight. Due to the broken angle stops, my kitchen sink was pronounced inoperable two months ago. I hadn't gotten around to getting them replaced because I'm living with a friend until my bathroom's done. However, you have to turn the sink on with pliers because the angle stops don't have handles on them (it's very old plumbing). Right now, it's my understanding they're in the "on" position, which is why water won't come out of the sink faucet even though it's hooked up. When you turn the angle stops to the "off" position with the water on, it sprays like you wouldn't believe and makes a huge mess. This requires me having to ask the building's water to be turned off to have fixed, and I have procrastinate, like I said.

Then I get a call that my workers put concrete down the kitchen sink, who are being supervised by me and a designer friend. When I wasn't there and the door was open, one of my neighbors came up to my unit from the plumbing site. He walked in uninvited and went into my kitchen. He said he saw white powder on the sink. He is married to the President of the HOA to top it off. What he saw was drywall dust, as the kitchen ceiling was recently patched, but he reported that he saw same substance in the woman's kitchen sink plumbing as was on my sink. Well, I freaked. But do I trust a man who trespasses and is married to the HOA president? I think not. I saw no evidence myself that anything was wet anywhere below my sink from my broken angle stops.

To be sure, I had my sink checked the next morning by an independent plumber who said the trap and my pipes under kitchen sink were totally dry, He said also that unless they had cleaned up very, very well, the sink hadn't been used in a while. So, I think that leaves the kitchen sink out, but leaves questions in my mind about the bathroom. And no, the HOA hasn't shown me the material or a picture, just given me a $1200.

The kitchen sink pipes of the woman right below me were filled with this stuff that hardens very fast, they said. They have not told me exactly what it is, but it's been described as concrete, drywall mud, and thinset by now. They did not tell me her shower put forth slimy, dirty water on the same day. She told me that. They have not come clean with any information that her bathroom was in an uproar on the same day, but it was.

I feel powerless as they've already billed me, but they don't know about my angle stops being broken yet. I wanted to wait to see what they said before I told them that, as I didn't know if it was possible for what I've described to happen in my sink's condition or not.

I am willing to pay if it's my fault, but $1200 seems predatory, and their plumber's invoice is full of terms I don't understands and actions that don't match the terms, plus terrible handwriting. My guys really are licensed and experienced plumbers, who are very upset and want to leave the job site as they hate these people. The HOA logic is - since I'm on the top floor it had to come from me. I don't know how to refute this logic other than my broken angle stops.

They also didn't open any walls to get to the vertical pipe I share with my neighbors, just this woman's sink below me and her pipes. Nor did their plumber come check my sink, although I requested it.

Thanks for listening. Just what you've shared so far has helped my eyes to stop rolling around in my head.

Krista

abregok · Mar 26, 2013, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by joypulv

I did say IF. We don't even know if it's only a 2 story building!
I don't think it's fair to compare this to the computer and the washer.
Sure, HOAs can accuse for no good reason, but they might be right too, and until Krista answers back, why are we fighting?

Also, I am the third floor unit - the top unit. Thanks.

abregok · Mar 26, 2013, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

Because you don't know what's wrong or what cause a problem doesn't make it my fault. My wife is the only one that is allow to think like that.

Okay, I understand. But I think they have it out for me because they had to pay to replace my personal property when a roof leak erupted and damaged my brand new kitchen cabinetry 3 months ago. The first two weeks, there was only $200 in damage to the drywall, but they waited 6 weeks to patch the roof, so the damage to my personal property was $3,000 by the time it was over. Every week they said they were sending someone to fix the roof, but it took them 6 weeks and I couldn't protect my oak cabinets from the moisture after each rain - they all got warped. That may have something to do with the unilateral decision that I caused this plumbing problem. But if it's not my fault, I shouldn't have to endure harassment by the HOA. If it is, I'll do the right thing.

hkstroud · Mar 26, 2013, 08:11 PM

Right now, it's my understanding they're in the "on" position, which is why water won't come out of the sink faucet even though it's hooked up. When you turn the angle stops to the "off" position with the water on, it sprays like you wouldn't believe and makes a huge mess

I think you stated that backwards. Your stop valves would be in the off position to stop the flow of water to the faucet. You would turn them to the on or open position to use the faucet.
This is the only thing that makes me question your contractor. Stop valves do some time leak after closing and then reopening even if they have sat untouched for years. This can happen because corrosion can build up on the stem and the turning damages the washer under the bonnet nut. This can cause a leak around the stem. This can often be corrected by tighten the bonnet nut slightly. The bonnet nut and washer is made in a certain way for that purpose. Stop valves some times leak around the stem, never have I seen one spray out water. This makes me question the competency of you plumber.

To be sure, I had my sink checked the next morning by an independent plumber who said the trap and my pipes under kitchen sink were totally dry, He said also that unless they had cleaned up very, very well, the sink hadn't been used in a while.

That certainly works well in your favor.

The kitchen sink pipes of the woman right below me were filled with this stuff that hardens very fast, they said. They have not told me exactly what it is, but it's been described as concrete, drywall mud, and thinset by now.

Is that the floor immediately below (2nd floor) or 1st floor?

Debris cannot get from your sink to the sink below with out water to wash it down. Your sink being inoperable is inconsistent with that happening. So is the statement of your independent plumber.

In a multi-story building it is almost a certainty that your kitchen drain feeds into a vertical pipe which also serves the kitchen drains below and then feeds into the main sewer. Your shower drain will either drain into the toilet bend (a short pipe that connects the toilet to the main sewer stack) or into the main stack it self. So will the unit below. A blockage in the kitchen drain will not block a shower drain. Your kitchen drain will be a 1 1/2" or 2" pipe. The vertical pipe it empties into will be larger, probably 3 or 4". Anything that passes a 2" pipe will not stop up a 3 or 4" pipe.

Described as concrete, drywall mud, and thinset

Was any work going on that involved concrete or thinset?

Drywall dust and drywall mud are water soluble. While is is possible to stop up a drain pipe but it would take a really excessive amount. And I do mean excessive amount. I don't think you could do it with drywall dust, you might be able to do it with drywall mud. As long the water is flowing even mud will devolve and wash away. If the workers dump unused drywall mud in the kitchen sink, they would have had to use a lot of water from somewhere to clean up. That water would have washed the mud to the main sewer. If they didn't use enough water to wash it away it might have stopped up your sink drain but not the drains below. The water from your drain does not go into the drain pipe of the kitchen sink below. It goes down the vertical pipe to the main sewer line. The only time you're your water gets into the drain pipe of the unit below is when there is a blockage in the line after the unit below.

The kitchen sink pipes of the woman right below me were filled with this stuff that hardens very fast, they said.

Even if that were true, the only way they could know that is if they sent a camera down the line.

but $1200 seems predatory

Yes, it does.

and their plumber's invoice is full of terms I don't understands and actions that don't match the terms

Demand an explanation.

If reasonable evidence to support the HOA's claim is presented (their plumbers bill) then it becomes your contractors problem. I would have you independent plumber examine and interpret the HOA plumber's bill.

There may be things going on here other than plumbing problems.

hkstroud · Mar 26, 2013, 08:24 PM

After reading your last post I think I would be contacting a lawyer. A letter from lawyer denying responsibility, citing that your kitchen was not in use due to repairs necessitated by their failure to make repairs promptly will probably resolve this matter.
P.S.
Have him throw in a little something about compensation for the loss of the use of your home.

hkstroud · Mar 26, 2013, 08:46 PM

That statement of mine, that you quoted in your last post, was not directed at you. It was directed at people who think that because they don't understand what is happening it must be someone's fault. If my wife computer won't do what she wants, its my fault, whether I have touched it or not. However, given your last post I think the HOA does understand and your assessment is probably correct.

joypulv · Mar 27, 2013, 03:26 AM

This does sound like the HOA from Hell, definitely out to get you.
Again I'm sorry that I assumed.

Yet I'm going to continue to play devil's advocate because I think it needs to be done.
We still don't know the configuration of the kitchen/bath drains vertically in the 3 units and where exactly the clog was.
A dry kitchen drain and unusable sink doesn't mean much until you know.
We don't know when her contractor left and when the clog below happened.
The '20 pounds' of stuff could be a little new on top of a lot of old.
We don't know if their plumber cut out the section, which would be expected I think, or if the HOA saved it.

I would demand a copy of the building plans plumbing page.
And an inspection of the cut out piece of drain and it's contents, and exact spot where the section was cut out, hopefully with your plumber as witness.
Then take all that information and a copy of the bill to a lawyer.
If they threw out the offending debris, maybe that's in your favor, in court anyway.

abregok · Mar 29, 2013, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

That statement of mine, that you quoted in your last post, was not directed at you. It was directed at people who think that because they don't understand what is happening it must be someones fault.

Oh no, I thought your statement was funny! I have been very tense and worried on and off for two weeks about this problem and was reminded how silly this all is. I know my guys didn't put anything down the sink. I just need to get a lawyer to write an initial letter requesting more info from them and explaining the situation about my sink. So far, they haven't listened to me.

abregok · Mar 29, 2013, 07:02 PM

[QUOTE=hkstroud;3428711]I think you stated that backwards. [QUOTE]

You are right, I said it backwards. I spoke to the plumber again after reading your post. He said that my angle stops are not just old, but broken. This studio apartment I bought in 2012 had only one owner since 1970, so it's possible the angle stops are that old. But also, I had a full kitchen remodel. Something probably fell on them during demo, he said, or they got kicked, because they sprayed out water when he turned them off and turned on the sink, in addition to needing pliers to turn them off. He said that water doesn't even make it up to the faucet. It just sprays out of the angle stops. That's actually funny. Have you heard of that before? I didn't know they were that bad. I knew nothing about these fricken things before this happened. Angle stops are my personal horror story.

hkstroud · Mar 29, 2013, 07:14 PM

He said that water doesn't even make it up to the faucet. It just sprays out of the angle stops

No that does not make any sense to me. Unless he doesn't have the faucet supply tubes properly connected.

Turn one on a little bit and tell me where the water comes out, around the stem or around the supply tube connection.

Don't understand the statement that the stops are broken. You don't break stops valves. You can break the handle off, you could break the stem and not be able to turn it on or off. Any other kind of breaking and water comes out, big time whether they are open or closed.

Show me a picture of these stop valves.

abregok · Mar 29, 2013, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by joypulv

We still don't know the configuration of the kitchen/bath drains vertically in the 3 units and where exactly the clog was.
A dry kitchen drain and unusable sink doesn't mean much until you know.
I would demand a copy of the building plans plumbing page.
And an inspection of the cut out piece of drain and it's contents, and exact spot where the section was cut out, hopefully with your plumber as witness.
Then take all that information and a copy of the bill to a lawyer.
If they threw out the offending debris, maybe that's in your favor, in court anyway.

This is great advice, thanks.

I know the building plumbing is 60 years old. From what the plumber's bill says that I can understand, they cleaned out all the sink drains of the 2nd floor unit below me. I know for sure they didn't replace or cut open any walls to the verticle pipes we share; there were no clogs in any of the verticle pipes. But they opened pipes in the garage and did some cleaning, said they found bits of concrete-like substance in there, but not enough to clog the pipe. It was all inside drains. It's a very weird report, leaving out important details and leading one to believe other things without being totally fraudulent.

My kitchen remodel ended 2 months before this incident. This incident happened all of a sudden, like everything went crazy on the same day. The
2nd floor unit's kitchen drain was clogged and her bathroom shower and sink
Emitted dirty black water (the part about the bathroom isn't in his report. I know that from talking to my 2nd floor neighbor).

I am going to use your suggestions.

hkstroud · Mar 29, 2013, 07:49 PM

said they found bits of concrete-like substance in there, but not enough to clog the pipe

Doesn't mean much. Could have been there for years. If it wasn't enough to block the pipe then it wasn't the problem. How is the water in your area? Is it very hard (has high mineral deposits), the concrete like substance could be lime deposits, if high mineral content in water.

My kitchen remodel ended 2 months before this incident

That in its self should eliminate you being responsible. Be sure lawyer points that out.

P.S.
Most condominium by-laws provide for a appeal hearing (if demanded) before such assessments can be made. Check you condo documents including master deed. Also probably required by state law.

abregok · Mar 29, 2013, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by hkstroud

No that does not make any sense to me. You don't break stops valves. You can break the handle off, you could break the stem and not be able to turn it on or off. Any other kind of breaking and water comes out, big time whether they are open or closed. Show me a picture of these stop valves.

Okay. I will take a picture when I go this weekend. He did say that I could show a picture to any plumber and he woud know right away what was wrong. I don't know what that means, but you probably will. He definitely said they sprayed and made a big mess until he turned them off with pliers.