[cavalier1971]

Hi everybody, and thanks for stopping in to read this. It's probably not unlike many topics you have read on the subject, and I have read a few of them as well.

First let me make it clear I am a student of DYD and SoSuave and LoveTactics and I do have a basic understanding of the principles of attraction and love. It helped me hook her in the first place. I am a recovering wuss, so clap and welcome me. :)

I'm going to try and keep the backstory short, but I'll keep in the important details.

I'm a 35 year old man and I am trying to begin a NEW relationship with my ex-fiance who is a beautiful 23 year old woman. After much thought and consideration, I have decided that she IS what I desire (not NEED).

We met November of 2005, hit it off, and she pursued me like mad. We became intimate very quickly, and although I was dating several women at the time it became apparent this girl was exceptional in many ways, so I agreed to be exclusive. Unfortunately I had a terrible secret: I was a smoker. When it was revealed that I was, she made it very clear that it was unacceptable and in order to be with her long term I would have to quit. I agreed since cigarrettes are something I was trying to quit anyway.

It was WAY harder than I ever imagined to deal with this addiction. I tried and screwed up, over and over. I did not want to be seen as weak, so I tried to deal with it privately and it came off as deceptive to her.

In the meantime, I had some economic difficulties and had to head back to my hometown to earn money over the summer (loss of STATUS). She was very supportive, and we agreed to stay in the relationship until I could get on my feet and come back. Over the summer she came to visit me and it was wall to wall passion. I proposed to her and she agreed. The smoking issue came up again, and I promised I would try harder, and I did. Unfortunately ALL my hometown friends are smokers and drinkers and it was very difficult to avoid. I was weak and in a bummed out state due to losing my footing in the big city, and missing her like hell.

Over the rest of the summer, our relationship got a little tense over the phone. I was accused of not listening, she tried to bully my opinion here and there, and generally played some girl games and apulled some s**t tests. I was pretty emotional at the time and screwed up a couple, I wavered and did NOT convey strength and independence.

So I headed back at the end of summer and agreed to stay with a member of her family (STATUS issue again) until I could secure employment and an apartment. I got a crappy part-time job to keep things going in the meantime. At first things were great again, but after about a week it was revealed I had relapsed on my old habit, and she bugged out. It was big.

I had quit, and relapsed just before returning, and tried to conceal it hoping to get a hold of it in time. But I was not able to, and I could feel my deception eroding her trust in me. She was trying her best to act normal at first, but there was a lot of random criticism and she was not saying or doing the sweet things she used to. The phrase "why do you always do that?" was common response (ANNOYANCE) to things that were totally fine before.

Ok, trying to sum up here: Getting a good job and securing an apartment was way harder and took longer than I expected, and I also became distracted by the state of our relationship. It was hard to focus. I was emotional and lost control of my inner wuss. I expressed neediness, insecurity, jealousy and dependence. I basically shot attraction in the face with a bazooka. During the last couple weeks she tried to breakup with me and I stupidly resisted trying to hang on to what seemed to be my last good thing. I crowded her and took up all her space.

I did find a really good job with great pay, and got an apartment in the neighborhood where we were looking. I also entered a counseling program and have been quits for over two months now, and I will stay that way, for myself. Towards the end she said "If I see you standing on your own and doing well, I might consider getting back with you".

So over the last two months I have slapped myself around, kicked my inner-wuss's and dived back into attraction theory. I've given her TONS of space and time to miss me. I have called her once a week, and sometimes not at all. I believe that if you want to recover a relationship, you have to spend as much time getting it back to frienship as it took to sour.

So now, I am on the threshold of that. I have faced myself, and stood up to my demons for my own good. I have re-established contact (after establishing ABSENCE and MYSTERY for two months) and attempting to do things with her again. I think we need to do some of the fun things we used to, since dating seemd to have died completely just before my departure for the summer.

I have the impression she has not missed me and that she is going to be very resistant to my advances, so I am going to need top-notch game here. I don't want to be manipulative, I just want to do it right. Both of us have a real stubborn streak, and I'm a "never say die" kind of guy. I've been told she likes some other guy, but he's already playing games with her head and doing take-aways. He's younger than her (20), and after careful consideration I do believe he would hurt her (I would NOT interfere if I thought she was interested in someone who could really fulfill her needs. Her hapiness is as important as my own).

So, if you were dedicated enough to read through to this point I commend you! :) But I also need your help in advising me on how to approach this correctly. I spent a lot of time writing a sincere, non-needy non-begging non-approval seeking letter of apology and I believe it did get through to her a bit. But when I do talk to her on the phone, she has little if anything to say, she asks no questions about me and is rather flat. I get off the phone in less than ten minutes, if that.

So now I'm at the beginning again, trying to start something new with someone I know loves a lot of my personality, but is going to resist and put up a big front out of fear of disappointment. How do you conquer that, and regain respect? Don't be kind, let it rip!

-Cavalier1971

[ballengerb1]

Can't or shouldn't give you much advice on the love side but ask your doctor about Chantix for the smoking problem. Chantix will help a great deal with the withdrawal from nicotine, better than the gum.
She see smoking as a trust issue rather than an addiction. In her mind, when you smoke you lie to her. Your mind just says give me some nicotine.

[rol]

<<I've given her TONS of space and time to miss me. I have called her once a week, and sometimes not at all>>

Hmm I don't really consider that a ton of space!
And she still sees you there waiting for her, I would say to back totally away and start the healing process properly.
If she wants you let her make the contact.

[cavalier1971]

ballengerb1: I have been clean for over two months, and have used the patch, the inhaler and the gum in addition to professional counseling. I would not pursue a relationship with her if that problem had not been addressed, considering it was the root cause of our breakup. When you have an addiction nothing else in your life will ever be as important as it. Not, love, your family, your health, or the truth. Thanks though.

rol: There were two months of no contact on my part, save for a couple necessary interactions to pick up mail, which I kept as short and pleasant as possible. I have re-established contact lately to set up a positive interaction without any big relationship talk. But as we know it's not so much what you say as how you say it and what you do, and that's why I'm here:). To figure out the correct approach.

[ForeverZero]

The thing about interest and desire is that you can't create it. It's either there or its not, so try not to take it too hard if you fail miserably. If she's interested in seeing other people, at least for the time being, that's not really grounds for a stable relationship in the long run, and the fact that she's 23 puts her in a different emotional bracket than you, all things to consider before you reinvest yourself.

Should you chose to pursue her, you'd be wise to not mention the other guy. You're also in a hard place to be because you should not interfere with that, it's really only going to damage your case if she sees you trying to manipulate her situation, it's what she wants to do, and she's allowed to do what she wants. Bait your hook and see what happens. Take her out to lunch or something and have a chat with her, nice and easy, don't be aggressive, but get your point across. You've changed for yourself, you want her back but would like to go slow and steady, see if she bites. If she doesn't, just stay within her view, present yourself as available and get on with your own life, maybe she'll check in in a few months.

[cavalier1971]

ForeverZero: Boy, I have to disagree with you on not being able to create interest and desire. That statement flies in the face of every marketing campaign ever created! I do believe there are natural reactions in humans to certain stimuli that spark attraction. We wouldn't be here if there weren't.

No, I won't mention or react to a mention of any other suitor as any criticism of them would be seen as insecurity and low self-esteem. I would not interfere, I meant that if she was interested in someone who was actually capable of treating her well, I would probably back off. But since I know he's a jackass I have no problem letting him screw himself up while I pursue correctly. I am not threatened by it.

The light date you mention is exactly what I'm after, but she seems a bit hesitant, even though she agreed to do something weeks ago. I asked her to go ice skating this evening on Monday, and I have yet to hear from her. Flaking out the day of would be a little insulting, and I'm not sure what to do if she does so.

[kaitou]

I spent a lot of time writing a sincere, non-needy non-begging non-approval seeking letter of apology and I believe it did get through to her a bit. But when I do talk to her on the phone, she has little if anything to say, she asks no questions about me and is rather flat. I get off the phone in less than ten minutes, if that.

How do you know the letter got through to her? It's all based on assumption. You can never ever know what another person is thinking. You can interpret her phone call as her being resistant to you, but it could also be interpreted as a way of her telling you she wants to move on, and you should too.

Maybe she loved your personality a LOT before the break-up, before you expressed your neediness, insecurity, jealousy and dependence (as you described it). You have to acknowledge that to her the neediness, insecurity, jealousy and dependence are part of your personality now, at least to her. Putting those in account maybe your personality is not as attractive as you may think it is to her.

Your addiction could be the root of your breakup, but there are possibility that it could be a trigger. So take a step back, and re-evaluate your situation.

And as you said yourself, she's something you desire not need. Perhaps you should move on.

But whatever you choose to do, good luck! :)

[Wildcat21]

If she is 23 - you're done. She's done with you.

You screwed up way too much to get this gal back. 35 year being needy and jealous to a 23 years old? Yuck.

And the money problems?

I'd try and find someone more your age. This gal is probably dating a lot in her wild gla stge.

[cavalier1971]

kaitou: The assessment of the effect of the letter came form a third party involved. I do not pretend to know what anyone is truly thinking, however I do trust the opinions of those close to her. The phone call attitude and the value of my personality were from this source as well. I am here because I have evaluated the hell out of this, and come to the conclusion that it's worth a shot. I don't throw a ring on just any girl, and I have been involved with many. Thanks for the luck.

Wildcat21: A harsh assessment, but I accept your opinion. She is atypical for a female of her age: raised in a foreign country, very traditional and conservative. Not to say she doesn't have a wild streak, but she is not promiscuous (sp?) and does not date much. In fact I was serious boyfriend number two, so we have to take into account a little emotional immaturity and inexperience.

The amount of time that was great far outweighs the amount of time that was bad, about a 9 to 1 ratio. The bad is most recent and still a bit fresh, and I'm trying to display the qualities that attracted her in the first place, none of which were fake. I believe we all have a bit of insecurity, and that it can really flare given the proper circumstances. As my fortunes sank, so did my self-esteem and my self-control along with it. But as I have improved my situation and made the right choices, I have felt my sense of worth surge back to normal and I feel like a whole person again; one that loves and respects himself.

As an update, she actually called me at work (I didn't answer) and left a voicemail confirming the ice skate date. We met up, and she was at first very distant and aloof. It even seemed for a moment that she might not get on the ice and just sit there like a lump of grump. So, rather than sit there and complain, I got up and said "Well, I'm getting my money's worth" and hit the ice. I skated around with a smile, occasionally giving her a goofy look or doing something silly as I went by her. Slowly she moved ever closer to the edge of the rink, until finally, she got on.

She can't skate very well and so hugs the wall as she goes around. I skated next to her now and again, busting on her old lady style and making her smile despite her best efforts. Lo and behold, she started to have fun.

Afterwards we grabbed a snack and I told some funny stories about a gay Spaniard I work with (hell of a guy). On the subway ride home, I kept it funny and light, and she took over, talking away. I walked her to her door and she invited me in, and I talked to her family (who incidentally love me pieces), had some small talk and hit the road.

Mission accomplished for the initial contact I'd say. Now the last interaction she has in her head is a positive one, and I will let it sit for a while and lean back. Man, it's like I'm writing a book here :D

[rol]

<<So, rather than sit there and complain, I got up and said "Well, I'm getting my money's worth" and hit the ice. I skated around with a smile, occasionally giving her a goofy look or doing something silly as I went by her.>>

Well that's always good to have a positive and fun attitude,
The fact you explained about her cultural difference also makes a big diffence.
Keep getting on with your life, and perhaps wait for her to contact or miss you.

[sophia3x]

Cavalier,

I know you have read a lot of books on "gaming chicks" but if you want to NOT get hurt in the long run, toss the books and get a therapist.

You see women as an adversary rather than a peer. This is adolescent and how a... ahem 23 year old acts... you got started late so it's OK, but if you had started dating early you'd attract women with basic self-confidence and trust.

Those books attract the insecure, and often younger girls that will give you PAIN. Spare yourself. Do something tougher, harder, bigger. Get a pro's help.

It's the MANLY thing to do - it requires vulnerability and guts. I'm sure you have both.

Heartbreak hurts bad. I'm only telling you all this because the women you want (hot, smart, independent) will stick longer if you are really ready for them. And to save you pain.

[cavalier1971]

sophia3X: I've read quite a few books on relationships and human behavior in general, and therapy is unnecessary as I AM an emotionally stable individual. I do have some trust issues thanks to some poor choices in who I trusted previously.

I do not view women as adversaries at all. Most of my best friends are females, and I greatly enjoy talking to and learning from them. You are making the MASSIVE baseless assumption that I started dating late, when in fact I have been dating since 17, and have dated, been intimate with, or in serious relationships with around 50 women. I didn't get in to attraction theory to learn what to do right, but rather what NOT to wrong. I do realize, however, that my charm and confidence definitely suffers when my life is in turmoil, and unfortunately it all happened before her very eyes.

She is in fact very independent and quite strong and these are just two qualities of hers I am very attracted to. She's also very passionate, open-minded, yet quiet and shy at times. A great girl at heart really. I think she stuck it out for a long time

The manly thing I am trying to do here is make good on my promises, redeem myself and live up to my word to someone I care deeply for. That is the goal I have in mind, I am just trying to figure out a way to do so without forcing anything or being manipulative.

Thanks for your input, every bit counts.