[Geoffersonairplane]

Hi guys and gals,

I have a question or interesting topic to start here.

When would you all say would be an appropriate age to start thinking about a serious relationship? I had my first serious (i.e long term) relationship (which as some of you know lasted 3 years) when I was 23. I was not really ready for anything serious until this age as far as can recall. Should we put an age on it or do you think it depends on the experiences that a person has that shapes their maturity and therefore defines the age at which they are realistically ready to commit to something serious? My ex was way too young, only 17 when I met her and now only 20 so in my eyes she was/is not ready for anything serious. I was wondering though on general ideas of ages when serious relationships should start. I know Wildcat says around 25 for women and possibly even 30for men but again, I am thinking around 25 for both sexes is realistic.

I am open minded but I believe that a person should after the age of 18 get to know themselves and who they are and what they want before making any kind of commitment. I know it took me at least 5 years of being single when I was younger to reach a point where I felt ready to start anything serious with a woman. Maybe that is just me but I am glad that I spent time learning who I am and what I am all about and yet I still think I am learning and growing at the age of 26 and believe I always will be.

I am banging on again... Sorry guys and gals :o :rolleyes:

[Allheart]

Geoff,

I just love when you bang on. So you go right ahead.

Geoff, you know it really depends on the individual. You are 26? If I were to put you next to some others who were 26, the differences may be huge. My husband at 26 was still trying to find his toes LOL, so to speak. But by age 28, there was a little glimmer of a light :).

If one needed to generalize, I would 2nd Wildcats numbers 25 for women and maybe 30 for men. However, I think 30 for men may be a little high. Could be 28 for men at the beginning stages of the relationship.

But Geoff, again, it really is on an indivduals own maturity level. Personally, I think, maturity wise, you are so ready right now. But you know I think the world of you anyway :) Stop blushing. But it is true.

[valinors_sorrow]

Dear Geoffer-san,
I'm with Allheart about your banging on - what a lovely question! I don't think a numerical age is appropriate but of course, you know I would say that. I was quite immature for a very long time due to outside circumstances like how poorly I was raised, some great psychological harm that remained unhealed and an active addiction too. I look back now and realise I never stood a chance at a successful relationship for quite a while.

I think the person needs to have three critical things and the biological age they are reached does not matter:
1. a pretty good idea of who they are as an independent being
2. a general idea of what they believe in, including what they are responsible for
3. and how they will apply their talents in life with a workable plan.

Without those, a relationship too easily becomes that which defines you, your fulltime job, a ticket to somewhere you can't get to by yourself or worst of all, something to do until something better comes along -- all of which make for terrible problems later.

Since many well raised kids in the US often meet most of that criteria just as they graduate from college or get settled in their work, it doesn't surprise me that serious relationships occur then and that many of them produce either mature awareness or marriage with far less drama than when its attempted prematurely. When something interferes with or delays meeting those criteria, I think that needs to be recognised, respected and dealt with too.

The premature involvement is all part of the "gotta have it now at any cost" effect I see in so many aspects of our culture -- with equally crappy consequences too. That and more and more people are using outside stuff -- people, money, possessions, etc to try and fix internal problems. Its like the addiction model has seeped its way into almost everything. I believe we need a mental health revolution so that being of sound mind and heart becomes more important that anything since it's the basic building block of EVERYTHING else!

I hope that covers it from me and thanks for listening.
Love,
Mrs. Miyagi (lol)

[Geoffersonairplane]

But Geoff, again, it really is on an indivduals own maturity level. Personally, I think, maturity wise, you are so ready right now. But you know I think the world of you anyway Stop blushing. But it is true.

:o :rolleyes: :o :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes:

Thanks Allheart... You are very kind..

If one needed to generalize, I would 2nd Wildcats numbers 25 for women and maybe 30 for men. However, I think 30 for men may be a little high. Could be 28 for men at the beginning stages of the realtionship.

That's what I thought too... 25 is quite a good indication for women and perhaps 28 - 30 for men but I do think that women mature more quick than men. I am not sure why that is but the majority of women mature more quick (most of the time).

[Synnen]

I keep telling all the single guys I know to stop complaining about the girls "looking for a nice guy but dating jerks" until after they're all 25. At about 25, women kind of wake up (well, *I* did, anyway) and kind of realize that they're done goofing around and are ready for the real thing.

So my advice is that if you REALLY think you're mature enough and ready for a relationship at a younger age--date someone older than you are :)

Val's guidelines are actually among the best I've seen for this question, and with her permission, I'm going to steal that answer the next time I have young friends bemoaning their lack of a serious relationship.

[Nosnosna]

I don't think it's a question of age at all. Certainly, age is a part of it, and can be a good indication, but I believe that's mostly incidental.

The trouble with setting an age for this sort of thing is that you fall into two major traps: First, you immediately discount anything that might happen before that age, when in fact that may have been what you really needed. Second, you take accountability away from people during their youthful relationships. Neither of these are beneficial in the end. I'll go into more detail on those two... they're too subjective to be accepted without support.

The trouble with automatically discounting younger relationships is that they are formative. It's from these relationships that we begin to recognize what a serious relationship entails, and our experiences in those relationships shape the later relationships. If we are to say that no relationship before # years old can be taken as serious, then we fail to recognize the value in anything before that... how can you learn about serious relationships and what they mean without actually trying to make one work? Further, if we have failed relationships, we're more likely to have our next relationship be successful because we know some of what is important... a person at 20 who has had three or four of these is likely to be much more likely to get into a successful serious relationship than a person at 25 (or 30, or 50) who has had one or even none. So, in effect, by discounting these you have said that their effects are less important (you were too young to get into that relationship, so those mistakes aren't as valuable a learning experience).

The accountability issue ties into this. As above, by saying that youthful serious relationships are ill-advised or premature, you downplay their educational value. I, like most of us, made some mistakes in younger relationships that I wouldn't make now. However, if I hadn't learned those that way, I wouldn't know them at all... if I were to look back and say that I was too young for that relationship, the tendency is to take it farther, and say that I was too young for those mistakes to matter. Once they don't matter, they get made again, because they were so unimportant last time that one doesn't think to be vigilant now. So, by going the route of saying that the relationship was premature, you make the lessons learned much less likely to be remembered down the line.

The result of this is that, as I said above, I don't feel that there is a good way to define an age. In its place, there's a matter of experience and what is usually called maturity: Knowing ones self. Experience is easy (to define)... at least one, but preferably two, failed serious relationships. This gives the person a chance to learn what does and doesn't work for them, and gives some indication of what does and doesn't work for others. On the other hand, there is such a thing as too much experience, which can leave a person muddled, bitter, or retired by the time they get to a successful relationship. Maturity is much harder to define in objective terms... some people are quick on figuring that part out, some are complicated, and some are simple, so that there is no right answer on that part. Indeed, some people don't need to figure themselves out before they add another person to the equation, and for whatever reason, it ends up working and they figure themselves out together.

In the end, there is no single answer for when people are ready for serious relationships. There's also no right answer for a given person. There are, however, seemingly endless wrong answers.

Edit to add: Holy long-winded response, Batman!

[valinors_sorrow]

Val's guidelines are actually among the best I've seen for this question, and with her permission, I'm going to steal that answer the next time I have young friends bemoaning their lack of a serious relationship.

Steal! Steal! LOL I am often challenging the fast young ones to get busy on stuff that is equally as important. They'll stop sort of startled and say, umm like what? That's when I begin quzzing them on how much they resemble a fully functioning adult, using my three point checklist. It really gets some good dialogue going and I sometimes even get to enjoy watching the wheels beginning to turn as we talk! LOL

The trouble with automatically discounting younger relationships is that they are formative. It's from these relationships that we begin to recognize what a serious relationship entails, and our experiences in those relationships shape the later relationships. If we are to say that no relationship before # years old can be taken as serious, then we fail to recognize the value in anything before that... how can you learn about serious relationships and what they mean without actually trying to make one work?

I totally agree with this but with a curve in it -- we crawl before we walk and walk before we run. The value of friendship, then dating, then more serious monogamous dating as stages of essential development has been practically eliminated in some people's mode of operation. Instead of dating, they are serial relationshipping and failing at it. Any wonder why? Best to make those mistakes without moving in together or marrying since those have much more serious ramifications. We used to say in the addiction business-- how could you tell it's the second date for the alcoholics... they're picking out curtains! LOL I love the line in that awful rehab movie 28 Days where the rehab counselor answers (when one of them protests the suggestion of no relationships for a while) get plant for a year, and if you don't kill it, get a pet for a year and if you don't kill it, then date!

[Geoffersonairplane]

The premature involvement is all part of the "gotta have it now at any cost" effect I see in so many aspects of our culture -- with equally crappy consequences too. That and more and more people are using outside stuff -- people, money, posessions, etc to try and fix internal problems. Its like the addiction model has seeped its way into almost everything. I believe we need a mental health revolution so that being of sound mind and heart becomes more important that anything since its the basic building block of EVERYTHING else!

I hope that covers it from me and thanks for listening.
love,
Mrs. Miyagi (Lil)

Thanks for you input Mrs Miyagi, wax on wax off as always... I just love your insight into things, it is powerful mind bending reading.

To add to this, it seems that today's society, at least British and American society is driven mainly by materialistic wants that in fact become needs foolishly by those who become mesmorised by the way society defines how people should live. I particularly agree with what you said val about the "gotta have it now at any cost" idea. There is a song I believe by Frank sinatra and while it does not quite match what I am talking about, I particularly agree with the song's title: Fools rush in :rolleyes:

Fools rush in
Where angels fear to tread
And so I come to you my love
My heart above my head

Though I see
The danger there
If there's a chance for me
Then I don't care

Fools rush in
Where wise men never go
But wise men never fall in love
So how are they to know

When we met
I felt my life begin
So open up your heart and let
This fool rush in

:rolleyes:

[Nosnosna]

I totally agree with this but with a curve in it -- we crawl before we walk and walk before we run. The value of friendship, then dating, then more serious monogamous dating as stages of essential developement has been practically eliminated in some people's mode of operation. Instead of dating, they are serial relationshipping and failing at it. Any wonder why? Best to make those mistakes without moving in together or marrying since those have much more serious ramifications.

Well yeah, of course you have to build up to things like moving in and marriage. However, a serious relationship doesn't require those (nor, for some people, does the former require a serious relationship, but that's another issue altogether :)). Actually, now that I think about it, we haven't defined exactly what a serious relationship entails... that makes the discussion a little different. I'd define it somewhere in the vicinity of emotional attachment, but your opinions may vary.

Back to the issues, the trouble in these relationships isn't solely that they overstep where the relationship should be, it's also (and I'd say predominantly) that they don't understand that that's what's causing the problems. Whether it's a teenager pushing for a kiss on the first date or a married person pushing for kids during the honeymoon, much of the friction that occurs in relationships is based on a difference in opinion about where the relationship is. The only way we can get around that is experience... yes, the experience in casual dating helps in serious relationships, but it's not enough by itself. We need experience in serious relationships before we can be expected to do well in a serious relationship... each step in the relationship is quite similar in that regard.

[talaniman]

Our past history and experiences make us who and what we are. The 3 items Val has presented is a good case example of being mature enough and skillful enough to handle the interactions between people. I think a successful relationship is one where both parties are working together for the betterment of them both and requires a lot of communication and reasoning skills to further both themselves and their goals. When problems pop up and in life they always do the way a couple handles it and how they solve these problems is as important as the final solution. Nothing to do with age but in maturity and willingness to give some to get some ,sometimes all we have is blind faith, which works as good as wisdom when we have none. It takes more to be happy than just wanting it, as a lot of hard work is involved and if you don't want to work you will never be happy. Darn it Geoff why did you have to get me started?

[valinors_sorrow]

We need experience in serious relationships before we can be expected to do well in a serious relationship... each step in the relationship is quite similar in that regard.

Oh dear, I never meant to suggest that we need to be great at it coming out of the gate. But I do think that its easier to learn some of the necessary components (sharing power, negotiating and compromising, being vulnerable, telling the truth, owning who you are and establishing boundaries, etc) in the other lessor arenas first. I often see serious relationships in trouble because one or neither of them hasn't worked out their personal stuff at even a friendship level with anyone at all. It strikes me as strange to think if you can't be a very good friend, that you'll somehow miraculously be an awesome lover? You want to see someone good at a serious relationship then look for someone who, in their own unique way, is good with people regardless of personality type. I really think there is a simplicity in this that works.

I eventually learned while dating to ask my dates about friends and family since those can be clues where the person is at with relationships of all kinds. Or if they ventured into talking about their ex's, I'd ask what did they learn -- you'd be surprised at those answers, yeeowie! The exclusive, romantic, sexually active (ie. serious) relationship is still largely a relationship. I do take your point that practice in all things, relationships included, makes us better-- but that is only if we are willing to improve ourselves too. That's the other big problem I commonly see in serious relationship. On the heels of its failure, absolutely nothing is learned while they are rushing to the next one to prove "its not me!" Again I would advise to back up one step and try something a little less intense for a while. That was more the point I was making, I think?

[chuff]

After all those in depth answers all I can really say is, I just think it's up to those individuals involved. I was involved in my first LTR when I was around 20 and she was 32 (thank you, I don't know how I pulled it off either) and it lasted almost 3 years. Looking back I did some things that I wouldn't do now but isn't that true with people who met at 20 and are married at 40. Mistakes are made. People grow. Relationships grow. But the age of the person is not relevant to the age of maturity or acceptance of responsibility in a relationship.

That's not to say that a young person can't be in a relationship but they may feel they are being constricted by someone or the relationship itself. If you are not growing as a person then you can't really get involved with any one else. If one person is growing and the other isn't the relationship is going to take a hit. If both are growing but in different directions the relationship loses it's value.

So in the end I guess I just don't know that I personally think one person's age matters, because I know some people who are 60 that aren't as mature as some 10 year olds. The age doesn't matter but the individual does.

[Nosnosna]

Oh dear, I never meant to suggest that we need to be great at it coming out of the gate. But I do think that its easier to learn some of the necessary components (sharing power, negotiating and compromising, being vulnerable, telling the truth, owning who you are and establishing boundaries, etc) in the other lessor arenas first. I often see serious relationships in trouble because one or neither of them hasn't worked out their personal stuff at even a friendship level with anyone at all. It strikes me as strange to think if you can't be a very good friend, that you'll somehow miraculously be an awesome lover? You wanna see someone good at a serious relationship then look for someone who, in their own unique way, is good with people regardless of personality type. I really think there is a simplicity in this that works.

I eventually learned while dating to ask my dates about friends and family since those can be clues where the person is at with relationships of all kinds. Or if they ventured into talking about their ex's, I'd ask what did they learn -- you'd be surprised at those answers, yeeowie! The exclusive, romantic, sexually active (ie., serious) relationship is still largely a relationship. I do take your point that practice in all things, relationships included, makes us better-- but that is only if we are willing to improve ourselves too. That's the other big problem I commonly see in serious relationship. On the heels of its failure, absolutely nothing is learned while they are rushing to the next one to prove "its not me!" Again I would advise to back up one step and try something a little less intense for a while. That was more the point I was making, I think?

Whoops. That wasn't meant in response to you at that point... I responded, and then kind of went off on a tangent :) You absolutely have to practice at different levels... a whole lot of friendship experience, quite a bit of dating, some serious relationship, maybe a few living together, maybe a couple of marriages. And then you get to the one spot where you don't get another chance at a do-over: Kids. The point I was intending was that living together outside of marriage isn't bad (in part because these days, marriage isn't exactly a binding arrangement for everyone), since it prepares you for one of the bigger changes involved in getting married.

In the end, the important thing to get from your formative relationships isn't to figure out what works and what doesn't, it's figuring out how to figure it out... that'll prepare you for anything.

[valinors_sorrow]

... it's figuring out how to figure it out... that'll prepare you for anything.

LOL That pings an old fond memory of mine... I went to a fantastic high school with some really gifted teachers. A favorite one began each season by telling his class "I am not going to teach you what to think, I am going to teach you TO think!"... and sure enough he did!

[FreeFallinBabe]

I agree, I think in your mid twenties is a good time for long term. I am not being a sexist but males in my school are mostly immature. I think they want to be able to be in a real relationship but they still have their younger selves inside them. I think high school is impractical for getting really serious and thinking of marriage. Yes, there are the select few that actually make it out of high school and get married. But those are few. I am not just saying this out of the blue, I am in a 1 and half year relationship with a guy and we've gone down the path of thinking of marriage etc. Now yeah it was fun to think of man I've already found the man of my dreams! But sadly I don't think we are yet ourselves. By that I mean... he is not really who he is and I am not yet who I am. As my science teacher once said... when we are in high school it is hard for us to say who we are and who we are going to marry. We are like stem cells, we love other stem cells. But when we turn into something else like tissue and he/she turns into bone... we are left completely different and wondering what happened to each other. Personally I think/ hope that by college and so on you are more aware of who you want to be and who you are looking for. Yup, enough ranting :o

[Geoffersonairplane]

That's the other big problem I commonly see in serious relationship. On the heels of its failure, absolutely nothing is learned while they are rushing to the next one to prove "its not me!" Again I would advise to back up one step and try something a little less intense for a while. That was more the point I was making, I think?

This is eactly why I am keeping myself single for a while. Sadly, I have a feeling my ex won't be sharing the same thoughts and will be rushing into something new.:rolleyes: Never mind, Live and Learn! :)

[Geoffersonairplane]

LOL That pings an old fond memory of mine... I went to a fantastic high school with some really gifted teachers. A favorite one began each season by telling his class "I am not going to teach you what to think, I am going to teach you TO think!" ... and sure enough he did!

No wonder you turned out such a great thinker and philosopher val... :)

[Geoffersonairplane]

That's not to say that a young person can't be in a relationship but they may feel they are being constricted by someone or the relationship itself. If you are not growing as a person then you can't really get involved with any one else. If one person is growing and the other isn't the relationship is going to take a hit. If both are growing but in different directions the relationship loses it's value.

This is exactly what I believe for the most part happened with me and my ex. I was growing but I think she began to feel constricted by the responsibility of a serious relationship and maybe this was holding her back from growing as a person. I know I have said before that she may be seeking other male attention including perhaps dating too but in fact, that is also part of growing by experiencing different situations with different people. I think my growing is about something different now, it is more of a spiritual growing if that makes sense. I don't know, I sometimes confuse myself sometimes.. LOL:rolleyes:

[valinors_sorrow]

Well, to put it in blunt terms-- when someone "practicing" at a relationship gets involved with someone who is really "doing" a relationship... or when someone's personal motives are not honorable and on the table as their partners... or when someone is ready for a relationship and the other one isn't but somehow got involved anyway (you know, the ol' "it just happened" line), then failure is usually only a matter of time. And someone hopefully learns how important discernment is and the value of going slow so you know your partner well before offering your whole heart.

[Geoffersonairplane]

And someone hopefully learns how important discernment is and the value of going slow so you can learn your partner well before offering your whole heart.

I think I learnt a big lesson here val... Discernment and keeping that lock on my heart until I think the relationship is ready.