[paraclete]

Hello again, clete:

That's not what the people want. I'll bet they GET what they want, and it won't be orderly.

excon

Yes Ex it is clear that there are some who want the chaos of revolution

[excon]

Hello again, clete:

What's clear to me, is that the peaceful revolution is being resisted by those clinging to power. If chaos ensues, it's NOT the revolutionary's doing.

excon

[smoothy]

Smoothy

don't you think it is about time Obama did what Mubarak suggested and but out.

At the moment what Egypt is moving towards is an orderly transition. This doesn't suit all and it probably won't result in democracy, unless democracy can be intrepreted as an election. However it also means no violent conflict. The last Egyptian president was assassinated, I expect this one wants to avoid going the same way. the whole thing ha sbeen taken over by opportinists. If the egyptians choose to resolve this under their constitution, the rule of law then they should be allowed too. Could you see Obama resigning if a million people and the Chinese leader called for his resignation?

I think Mr. Obama should do what the American people want him to do first (like step down himself)... THEN he might have a leg to stand on before he starts demanding things of others.


Yeah... he and Hillary both need to shut their collective mouths. Neither one of them have a clue about how to do their own jobs. Much less tell others how to do theirs.

[smoothy]

Hello again, clete:

What's clear to me, is that the peaceful revolution is being resisted by those clinging to power. If chaos ensues, it's NOT the revolutionary's doing.

excon

Won't be peaceful when you don't have anything to replace it with... and as it stands now... they don't.

September is reasonible... gives time for picking a successor by popular vote after groups who want to do it get a chance to organize prior to a vote. If the entire regiem walks away tomorrow (like those fools want)... exactly who is supposed to step into its place?? The only organized group there right now is a terrorist organization.. THe Muslim Botherhood... then we have another Iran and I bet they will be REAL happy with that bunch, if they think its bad now... just wait..

[excon]

Won't be peaceful when you don't have anything to replace it with.......and as it stands now....they don't.

Hello again, smoothy:

Sure they do. The military is the ONLY organization that CAN take over, and that would be cool with the demonstrators. The key to watch for tomorrow, is whether they'll back Mubarak and fire on their own people, or will they escort Mubarak out of town?

The right wing, ALL the dictators in the region, plus Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates are lined up on Mubarak's side. Me, and the rest of the good guys, are for democracy. Yeah, it'll mess up our ideas about the Middle East. So?

excon

[paraclete]

Hello again, clete:

What's clear to me, is that the peaceful revolution is being resisted by those clinging to power. If chaos ensues, it's NOT the revolutionary's doing.

excon

Ex pehaps you haven't noticed but the reason there might be a "peacefull" revolution is the marches haven't been opposed by force. Whenever force is evident then it isn't "peacefull" and people get killed. Mubarek and the military, which is his power base, have shown restraint, but the country is decending into chaos and if Mubarak and the government go, there will be a vacuum, which inevietably leads to chaos and violence. The demands have gone beyond change of government and a new constitution but include all sorts of concessions.

No one needs another failed state in the northern sahara

[smoothy]

Hello again, smoothy:

Sure they do. The military is the ONLY organization that CAN take over, and that would be cool with the demonstrators. The key to watch for tomorrow, is whether they'll back Mubarak and fire on their own people, or will they escort Mubarak out of town?

The right wing, ALL the dictators in the region, plus Hillary Clinton and Bill Gates are lined up on Mubarak's side. Me, and the rest of the good guys, are for democracy. Yeah, it'll mess up our ideas about the Middle East. So?

excon

Maybe because of an inconvienient thing called history.

Military leaders don't like handing over power once its in their hands... too many examples of that in the past.

[excon]

The military is the ONLY organization that CAN take over, and that would be cool with the demonstrators.

Hello again, clete:

What I said above.

excon

[excon]

Military leaders don't like handing over power once its in their hands....too many examples of that in the past.

Hello again, smoothy:

I don't disagree at all. Mubarak is FROM the military. As you say, HE certainly doesn't like handing over power. But, the people are demanding it, and it looks like they're going to get their way.

Once the people get a taste of the idea that THEY can decide who runs their country, instead of being dictated to, they're not going to give it up... They're kind of like us in that regard... Why SHOULDN'T they decide who runs things? Aren't they like YOU?

excon

[smoothy]

Hello again, smoothy:

I don't disagree at all. Mubarak is FROM the military. As you say, HE certainly doesn't like handing over power. But, the people are demanding it, and it looks like they're going to get their way.

Once the people get a taste of the idea that THEY can decide who runs their country, instead of being dictated to, they're not going to give it up... They're kinda like us in that regard... Why SHOULDN'T they decide who runs things? Aren't they like YOU?

excon

Obama won't step down... why should Mubarak, before elections can be organized for September. Why immediately. We have to wait almost two more years and we have even more people that want him (obama) gone here.

If I got in that position with the military behind me... it would be hard for me to hand it over to just any idiot...

Not that I've been in the situation... but I can understand it.

[excon]

If I got in that position with the military behind me.....it would be hard for me to hand it over to just any idiot.....

Hello again, smoothy:

Once again, we agree. IF he leaves, it'll be because he was "escorted" out. He isn't going to go willingly. As I said above, the key is whether the military will support HIM or the people. We'll see how that pans out tomorrow, live on TV.

Democracy CAN bloom, even where there is NO history of democracy. Let's hope it's happening here. Wouldn't that be cool? I'd jump on the side of the people. Don't you think the people should RUN their own show??

excon

[smoothy]

I disagree that the Military should be any form of interim government however. That's BEGGING for something worse to happen than him.

He's no angel and not perfect... but there ARE far worse things than him until a proper election can be held. And if the Muslim Brotherhood gets in their via fraud because nobody else had time to organise? Then THEY change the constitution... after all, they change it on a whim in places like that... they don't have the safeguards and protections we have.

[paraclete]

Democracy CAN bloom, even where there is NO history of democracy. Let's hope it's happening here. Wouldn't that be cool? I'd jump on the side of the people. Don't you think the people should RUN their own show????

excon

That's american rhetoric Ex, by the way by "here" do you mean the US? Ex, Government exists because the people can't run their own show, they elect representatives who it is hoped have some talent for administration. Fallorn hope in most cases and particularly in a place which is already poorly governed. Government by the people is anarchy, or plan old american rhetoric. The US didn't arise with no history of democracy, the very process was democratic borrowed from their "oppressors".

[tomder55]

Once again, we agree. IF he leaves, it'll be because he was "escorted" out. He isn't going to go willingly. As I said above, the key is whether the military will support HIM or the people. We'll see how that pans out tomorrow, live on TV.

So far the military supports the transition... I believe they'd like to keep the current Nasserism system.

More disturbing to me is the disconnected and disjointed messages coming from the top of our administration. Forgetting the President's cheerleading and pressuring Mubarak to create a power vacuum in Egypt... CIA boss Panetta got the days events completely wrong in testimony before Congress ;telling them that Mubakak wuld indeed step down yesterday .

DNI chief James Clapper incredibly told a House Intelligence Committee hearing that the Ihkwan (Muslim Brotherhood) was not extreme and largely secular. It is absolutley scary the lack of basic knowledge the top levels of our intelligence and diplomatic corp possesses. (was our Ambassador in Cairo surprised by Mubarack's decision also ?)

By their own admission the mission statement of the Ihkwan;their “key pillars”,is the imposition of sharia law and the reestablishment of the global caliphate .How could Clapper not know that ?

[paraclete]

By their own admission the mission statement of the Ihkwan;their “key pillars”,is the imposition of sharia law and the reestablishment of the global caliphate .How could Clapper not know that ?

They don't know it Tom because it doesn't suit them to know it. This all has a very strange turn of events, the destabilisation of arab Governments in several countries similtaneously with the primary target a nation that led arab nationalism and their chief ally part of the destabilisation process. It smells of payback to me. Iraq has been taken out, now take out Egypt, and what is left is a shell, I expect the next target will be Syria.

Do you start to see it Tom?

[tomder55]

Yeah sure do... and that wasn't really a plane flying into the Pentagon... it was a missile .

It is no secret that I'm no fan of this administration . But I don't see sinister motives. I see incompetence.

[smoothy]

Odd how Obama is so behind THIS one where disaster is so much the likely outcome...

But when the People in Iran rose up not all that long ago... nObama was firmly behind Adolph THe Iraninan terrorist and against the people.

[excon]

I see incompetence.

Hello again, tom:

So, let's spy more on Americans... That'll tell us what's going on over there. Certainly, spying on the Arabs ain't working.

excon

[tomder55]

I think the root of the faulty analysis is the cloud of political correctness ,faulty premises and wishful thinking .
It's the same crowd that told us in at the end of the Bush term (in the NIE )that Iran had stopped it's nuke program.

Further ,the intelligence agencies have yet to recover from the decision to scale down the HUMINT. Perhaps if we had more resources devoted to intel gathering in Egypt we would get a clearer picture.
That may explain Panetta.
Clapper is a different story. His "gaffe " may be clear spin, paving the way to a time when the Ihkwan are the power in the country . Obama has indicated more than once he'd be pleased to treat the Brotherhood as legitimate political entity instead of the jihadist terrorist organization it is. I think Clapper was saying what the President wanted to hear.

Comparing this to the NSA intercepts of enemy transmissions into the country is apples and oranges. The success of that program has been established .

[excon]

Further ,the intelligence agencies have yet to recover

Hello again, tom:

Oh, those poor intelligence agencies... Let's spend MORE money on 'em. Maybe then we might have a clue about what's going on in the world... We MIGHT have even learned that the Arab world was on the edge of revolt... I have a feeling that THAT wasn't so secret... But, nahhh... We missed it.

It IS easier to spy on Americans, though. Specially when they've got Americans like YOU telling 'em it's a good idea. I mean you don't have to learn a foreign language or nothing...

Do YOU feel safer KNOWING that, in spite of the BILLIONS of $$$$'s we're spending, we MISSED this??

excon