[De Maria]

One must take into account the purpose of a book such as Job and why it was written, if literary devices are used and why, if the characters are invented or real (and if it matters).

Good points!

[De Maria]

Wondergirl?

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondergirl View Post
That's not human effort; that's the Holy Spirit at work.

Aha! I think we're getting somewhere!

That's the Holy Spirit working where?

Quote:

Quote:
If they are unrepentant, they are saying "no, thanks."

And what does it mean to repent?

I don't want you to lose track of this question.
__________________

[Wondergirl]

But only one way that leads to truth. And that is by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

Truth cannot be found outside of the Catholic Church?

[De Maria]

Truth cannot be found outside of the Catholic Church?

Did I say that? Please read my comment again.

[Wondergirl]

And what does it mean to repent?

God comes to me where I am and works new affections in my soul. Thus, repentance is not something that I do as a work; both repentance and faith are the result of the new birth in Christ applied to me by the Holy Spirit. "We love Him because He first loved us" (I John 4:19).

[Wondergirl]

But only one way that leads to truth. And that is by the tradition of the Catholic Church.

Truth cannot be found outside of the Catholic Church?

Did I say that? Please read my comment again.

You said, "But only one way that leads to truth. And that is by the tradition of the Catholic Church."

Sounds to me like you said that.

[De Maria]

You said, "But only one way that leads to truth. And that is by the tradition of the Catholic Church."

In response to a question about interpretation of Scripture. The only way to be sure you are interpreting Scripture correctly is to make sure it is according to Church Tradition. That is in the Catechism.

Sounds to me like you said that.

There are many truths all over the world. And it is true that I'm up past my bedtime. Buenas noches maravilla

[Wondergirl]

In response to a question about interpretation of Scripture. The only way to be sure you are interpreting Scripture correctly is to make sure it is according to Church Tradition. That is in the Catechism.

There's no other way to interpret Scripture correctly?

What if one is not Catholic and interprets Scripture?

[Rebel1st]

Truth cannot be found outside of the Catholic Church?

But which Catholic Church? The Anglican,The Orthodox{which one],The Roman,or The Holy Catholic Church of The Nicene Creed. I vote for the last one ,but unfourtunly THAT ONE IS NOT STILL ACTIVE.

[Rebel1st]

One must take into account the purpose of a book such as Job and why it was written, if literary devices are used and why, if the characters are invented or real (and if it matters).

It was probably written to show the what the relationship between good men and GOD should be. I doubt if it was one man ,but was one man used as a symbol of mankind. But it does show that no one can do evil,not even the devil,without getting the permission from GOD first!

[De Maria]

But which Catholic Church? The Anglican,The Orthodox{which one],The Roman,or The Holy Catholic Church of The Nicene Creed. I vote for the last one ,but unfourtunly THAT ONE IS NOT STILL ACTIVE.

There is only one. And yes, it is still here. Otherwise you are calling Jesus a liar when He said:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

[De Maria]

It was probaly written to show the what the relationship between good men and GOD should be. I doubt if it was one man ,but was one man used as a symbol of mankind. But it does show that no one can do evil,not even the devil,without getting the permission from GOD first!

Read it again. The devil was asking permission to test one around whom God had established a hedge.

Someone of that calibre is like a St. Catherine Sienna, St. Francis Assissi, St. Dominic or other higher order Saint of the Catholic Church who is already experiencing heaven right here on earth.

The rest of us are still fair game.

[Rebel1st]

Read it again. The devil was asking permission to test one around whom God had established a hedge.

Someone of that calibre is like a St. Catherine Sienna, St. Francis Assissi, St. Dominic or other higher order Saint of the Catholic Church who is already experiencing heaven right here on earth.

The rest of us are still fair game.

Yes we all are fair game if GOD gives anyone the permission to do evil to us ,otherwise we are protected from evil by GOD saying no or putting limits on to what extent that evil extend. Just as Christ named Peter as the Rock which HE woulld build HIS church on,but put limitations on Peter . Read on in that passage,"Get thyself behind ME satan" when Peter started to speak as to what GOD should do and HE told Peter he could only speak for man. As to your entry about there being only One Catholic Church, All of those Catholic Churches had Bishops at the Nicene Council including the Bishop of Rome and they all submitted to the authority of Council . The authority of the Council came from Constantine ,who appointed the head of it.Therefore the Head of the Catholic Church was the One that all branches of THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH submitted including the roman Catholic Church,which still says and believes in the Nicene Creed. There has been many other problems in the line of the Popes, but I would have no problem in accepting him as the head of THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURH if all of the many forms of the catholic church would accept him as such. The biggest block to this is "infallibility". As noted in the passage in the bible "Peter is the rock ,Chirist said Peter had made a mistake in regards in faith,morals,and dogma.How many of the learned bishops were excommunicated in the 1800's when they couldn't accept that doctrine? The r/c church said history showed it to be,but no one could come up with the historical references showing that idea being accepted in history. Will you please quote,or ask your father ,and get back to me with the historical basis for that "belief". I would really appreciate that. Thank you in advance.

[De Maria]

yes we all are fair game if GOD gives anyone the permission to do evil to us ,otherwise we are protected from evil by GOD saying no or putting limits on to what extent that evil extend. Just as Christ named Peter as the Rock which HE woulld build HIS church on,but put limitations on Peter . Read on in that passage,"Get thyself behind ME satan" when Peter started to speak as to what GOD should do and HE told Peter he could only speak for man. As to your entry about there being only One Catholic Church, All of those Catholic Churches had Bishops at the Nicene Coucil including the Bishop of Rome and they all submitted to the authority of Council . The authority of the Council came from Constantine ,who appointed the head of it.Therefore the Head of the Catholic Church was the One that all branches of THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH submitted including the roman Catholic Church,which still says and belives in the Nicene Creed. There has been many other problems in the line of the Popes, but I would have no problem in accepting him as the head of THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURH if all of the many forms of the catholic church would accept him as such. The biggest block to this is "infallibility". As noted in the passage in the bible "Peter is the rock ,Chirist said Peter had made a mistake in regards in faith,morals,and dogma.How many of the learned bishops were excommunicated in the 1800's when they couldn't accept that doctrine? The r/c church said history showed it to be,but no one could come up with the historical references showing that idea being accepted in history. Will you please quote,or ask your father ,and get back to me with the historical basis for that "belief". I would realy appreciate that. Thank you in advance.

Although ST. Constantine (a Saint of the Eastern Church) was very active in bringing the Council together, the Council was under the authority of the Pope.

[De Maria]

... As noted in the passage in the bible "Peter is the rock ,Chirist said Peter had made a mistake in regards in faith,morals,and dogma.

But Christ was still with Peter. Read a bit more:
Luke 22:30-32 (King James Version)

30That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

31And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

And also:
John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

And also:
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Therefore, the charism of infallibility was given to Peter after Jesus ascended into heaven.

How many of the learned bishops were excommunicated in the 1800's when they couldn't accept that doctrine? The r/c church said history showed it to be,but no one could come up with the historical references showing that idea being accepted in history.

I don't know why not, we still have them today.

Will you please quote,or ask your father ,and get back to me with the historical basis for that "belief". I would really appreciate that. Thank you in advance.

Sure:
Testimony of the Early Church Fathers

Pope Clement I: "Owing to the sudden and repeated calamities and misfortunes which have befallen us… Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret… If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [God] through us [that you must reinstate your leaders], let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and in no small danger… You will afford us joy and gladness if being obedient to the things which we have written through the Holy Spirit, you will root out the wicked passion of jealousy…" (Letter to the Corinthians 1:1, 58:2-59:1,63:2[A.D.80]).

Ignatius of Antioch: "… to the Church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

Cyprian of Carthage: "Would the heretics dare to come to the very seat of Peter whence apostolic faith is derived and whither no errors can come?"

Cyprian of Carthage: "the Lord says to Peter; ’I say to you,’ he says, ‘that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not overcome it. And to you I will give the keys of the kingdom of Heaven; and whatever things you bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth, they shall be loosed also in heaven’ [Matt 16:18-19])…On him [Peter] he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep [John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were also what Peter was [i.e. apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4; 1st edition [A.D. 251]).
Papal Infallibility

[Wondergirl]

There is only one. And yes, it is still here. Otherwise you are calling Jesus a liar when He said:
Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Why didn't Jesus say, "upon thee I will build my church" and point explicitly to Peter?

As the verse stands, "upon this rock I will build my church," Jesus is referring to Himself as "this rock."

[Wondergirl]

Therefore, the charism of infallibility was given to Peter after Jesus ascended into heaven.

Huh? In that passage (Luke 22:30-32 and in the verses from John), Peter was simply being charged with the responsibility of becoming a missionary for Christ.

[De Maria]

Why didn't Jesus say, "upon thee I will build my church" and point explicitly to Peter?

As the verse stands, "upon this rock I will build my church," Jesus is referring to Himself as "this rock."

Jesus was speaking Aramaic and He made a play on words.

Remember that in Aramaic, Peter is Cephas or rock.

So, Jesus didn't say, "you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church."

He said, "you are Cephas and upon this cephas I will build my Church."

The play on words is perfectly clear. And the fact that the subject and object of that verse is one and the same, Simon, the one whom Jesus was singling out and rewarding for his statement of faith.

[De Maria]

Huh? In that passage (Luke 22:30-32 and in the verses from John), Peter was simply being charged with the responsibility of becoming a missionary for Christ.

But only Simon was charged with the responsibility of being the Rock on whom the Church would rest and of being the Shepherd over Christ's sheep.

[dwashbur]

Jesus was speaking Aramaic and He made a play on words.

Remember that in Aramaic, Peter is Cephas or rock.

So, Jesus didn't say, "you are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church."

He said, "you are Cephas and upon this cephas I will build my Church."

The play on words is perfectly clear. And the fact that the subject and object of that verse is one and the same, Simon, the one whom Jesus was singling out and rewarding for his statement of faith.

Wrong again, de. If he was speaking Aramaic then there is no play on words. It's nothing but a repeated word, and that's not a play on words. The pun only works in Greek, which is clearly the language Jesus was speaking here, and there are two different Greek words used. He said "you are peter," a word meaning "a small stone," and "upon this rock," a word meaning "huge boulder." If you actually knew anything about the language in question you'd realize that there is indeed a play on words here, but it goes in the opposite direction that you claim. Jesus said, "you're a rock, all right, but I'll build my church on a much bigger rock, i.e. myself."

The play on words is there, but it explicitly says that Peter is NOT the "rock" that the church is built on.