In John 6:44 Jesus says" You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by my father" In early greek Bibles he said" You can only come to me if you are selected to come to me by my father" Earlier in John Jesus said"You can only go to the FATHER through me. Both of these passages would indicate some will not be drawn/selected by the Father to go to Jesus and therefore can not go to the Father(?) Take for instance someone who blasphemes THE HOLY SPIRIT or someone never introduced to Jesus(which does not hardly happen anymore). This would bear out Predestination according to Calvin, Martin Luther,and St. Augustine(in his final years)when he said Man lost his free will when Adam disobeyed God the FATHER and saddled us with "original sin"which overcomes our will. Therefore my question is "Isn't only by GOD's GRACE THAT THOSE WHO ARE SAVED BY HIM and those who who ARE NOT GIVEN HIS GRACE ARE PREDESTINED TO BE DAMMED and there is nothing we can do or say that will earn HIS GRACE. THIS IS PREDESTINATION

What futility! That we have no free will after all but are just puppets in the hands of a vengefull God. No wonder the Catholic Church does nothing to lead non- catholics to Jesus, after all they are all predestined to be damned. I cannot and will not believe in such a doctrine

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Originally Posted by paraclete

What futility! That we have no free will after all but are just puppets in the hands of a vengefull God. No wonder the Catholic Church does nothing to lead non- catholics to Jesus, afterall they are all predestined to be damned. I cannot and will not believe in such a doctrine

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Look in your History Book St.Augustine and Martin Luther were BISHOPS in the Roman Catholic Church. St. Augustine's acceptance of FREE WILL in his confessions was THE SAME AS GALILEO acceptance of THE UNIVERSE revolves around the EARTH,as we know both the RC church and he went back to the TRUTH,which they knew all the time.But GALILO had to wait until the RC Church was ready to admit the truth first. By the way I believe in the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH even though I was brought up in the ANGLO CATHOLIC CHURCH . I Believe IN THE HOLY NICENE CREED (NOTE: NOT ROMAN,NOT ANGLICAN, NOT ORTHODOX ,BUT JUST THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH ,THE WAY IT WAS IN THE Beginning. MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR THE TRUTH(HISTORY IS A GOOD PLACE TO START ) instead of waiting for organized religion to finally return to the TRUTH (SEE ABOVE)

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Originally Posted by rebel1st

look in your history book st.augustine and martin luther were bishops in the roman catholic church. St. Augustine's acceptance of free will in his confessions was the same as galileo acceptance of the universe revolves around the earth,as we know both the rc church and he went back to the truth,which they knew all the time.but galilo had to wait untill the rc church was ready to admit the truth first. By the way i beleive in the holy catholic church even though i was brought up in the anglo catholic church . I beleive in the holy nicene creed (note: Not roman,not anglican, not orthodox ,but just the holy catholic church ,the way it was in the begining. Maybe you should look for the truth(history is a good place to start ) instead of waiting for organized religion to finally return to the truth (see above)

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You might also check holy scripture.if you believe that as I do

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Look in your History Book

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I don't need a history book to know the truth, I look to Jesus

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Look in your History Book St.Augustine and Martin Luther were BISHOPS in the Roman Catholic Church. St. Augustine's acceptance of FREE WILL in his confessions was THE SAME AS GALILEO acceptance of THE UNIVERSE revolves around the EARTH,as we know both the RC church and he went back to the TRUTH,which they knew all the time.But GALILO had to wait untill the RC Church was ready to admit the truth first. By the way I beleive in the HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH even though I was brought up in the ANGLO CATHOLIC CHURCH . I BELEIVE IN THE HOLY NICENE CREED (NOTE: NOT ROMAN,NOT ANGLICAN, NOT ORTHODOX ,BUT JUST THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH ,THE WAY IT WAS IN THE BEGINING. MAYBE YOU SHOULD LOOK FOR THE TRUTH(HISTORY IS A GOOD PLACE TO START ) instead of waiting for organized religion to finally return to the TRUTH (SEE ABOVE)

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I suggest you read St. Augustine more closely. He is thoroughly Catholic and believes in the Catholic doctrine of predestination.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

In John 6:44 Jesus says" You can only come to me if you are drawn to me by my father" In early greek Bibles he said" You can only come to me if you are selected to come to me by my father" Earlier in John Jesus said"You can only go to the FATHER through me. Both of these passages would indicate some will not be drawn/selected by the Father to go to Jesus and therefore can not go to the Father(?) Take for instance someone who blasphemes THE HOLY SPIRIT or someone never introduced to Jesus(which does not hardly happen anymore). This would bear out Predestination according to Calvin, Martin Luther,and St. Augustine(in his final years)when he said Man lost his free will when Adam disobeyed God the FATHER and saddled us with "original sin"which overcomes our will.

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You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.

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Therefore my question is "Isn't only by GOD's GRACE THAT THOSE WHO ARE SAVED BY HIM and those who who ARE NOT GIVEN HIS GRACE ARE PREDESTINED TO BE DAMMED and there is nothing we can do or say that will earn HIS GRACE. THIS IS PREDESTINATION

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It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.



It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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You may be right But if faith is GOD's Gift then we can only have it if GOD gives it to us.We can only exercise it if GOD gives it to us. Therefore it is not of our will but of GOD'S Will.Therefore it also follows that only GOD has FREE WILL and our will is subservient to HIS WILL. From this it follows the only TRUE FREE WILL IS GOD'S WILL. The above also can be discerned by the following line of thought. The choices man makes are the product of his mind and makes up his will. His mind is created and given to him by GOD. Man's thinking is shaped by his environment which also comes from GOD.Therefore the way he thinks and acts comes from GOD. So again we come to the conclusion that man's will is subservient to GOD

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Originally Posted by De Maria

You're mixing apples and oranges. The fact that some will disobey God is an affirmation of free will. It is because they freely chose to disobey
God that they were condemned.



It is by God's grace, but not by God's grace alone.

Scripture says:
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

You see, faith is the grace by which we are saved. By this I don't mean to insinuate faith ALONE. However, faith is a grace and it is a gift of God. And without faith we won't be saved.

But faith is a particular kind of grace which must be exercised. And faith is exercised in the will. Therefore we must will to exercise faith and when we do we combine with faith our cooperation which takes the form of works. And therefore Scripture says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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If faith is grace , and grace is a gift of GOD which we can not earn by our own actions,then the works that justifies man must be an action caused by the brain of man. Seemy last answer to you. It then follows that not faith is a type of GOD'S GRACE but the good works he does are a product of the way he thinks . See my last answer to find out why man thinks the way he does.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

I suggest you read St. Augustine more closely. He is thoroughly Catholic and believes in the Catholic doctrine of predestination.

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Look at his writings in the latter part of his life. He said "man lost his free will by the fall of Adam" actually that because of the" original sin was so strong it overcomes man's free wll. Also look at what The council of orange's position on predestination . That was the official HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH'S position as of that date. Also look at my previous answer about why we should return to THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH as we profess to believe in the NICENE CREED. Let's get rid of any national adjective and return to the ONE TRUE CHURCH

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Martin Luther [was a] BISHOP in the Roman Catholic Church

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Please cite your source.

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Originally Posted by De Maria

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

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James is talking about Abraham.

Some of James' hearers used the doctrine of justification by faith alone as an excuse to be complacent about living in an ungodly way. James wanted to shake them up a bit and so deliberately used paradox in this verse. He then used the example of Abraham as the test for genuine faith -- first faith (Gen. 15:6) and then works (Gen. 22). In James 2:18, James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." He was referring to the genuineness of faith.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

You may be right But if faith is GOD's Gift then we can only have it if GOD gives it to us.We can only exercise it if GOD gives it to us. Therefore it is not of our will but of GOD'S Will.Therefore it also follows that only GOD has FREE WILL and our will is subservient to HIS WILL. From this it follows the only TRUE FREE WILL IS GOD'S WILL. The above also can be discerned by the following line of thought. The choices man makes are the product of his mind and makes up his will. His mind is created and given to him by GOD. Man's thinking is shaped by his enviroment which also comes from GOD.Therefore the way he thinks and acts comes from GOD. So again we come to the conclusion that man's will is subservient to GOD

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Hi Rebel,

What you have here seems to be an argument for fatalism rather than predestination.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Rebel,

What you have here seems to be an argument for fatalism rather than predestination.

Regards

Tut

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To me fatalism and predestination are the same in this case because they are both based on the WILL OF GOD.He is the only one who can give you grace and only HIS GRACE CAN SAVE YOU. HIS GRACE is given to you if HE WILLS IT

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

To me fatalism and predestination are the same in this case because they are both based on the WILL OF GOD.He is the only one who can give you grace and only HIS GRACE CAN SAVE YOU. HIS GRACE is given to you if HE WILLS IT

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Hi Rebel,

No problem. I just thought I would point that out.

Regards

Tut

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Originally Posted by paraclete

I don't need a history book to know the truth, I look to Jesus

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FINE THEN USE THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. CAVIN DID AND WAS ONE OF THE GREAT MEN WHO INSPIRED ME TO THINK THE WAY I DO. Maybe they were wrong and maybe they wre right'think about it . The other two were Martin LUTHER AND ST.AGUSTINE BOTH OF WHOM WERE CATHOLIC BISHOPS

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Please cite your source.

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The history of europe and the history of the catholic church. See the nailing on the door of his objections to indulgences and more (if i remember right it was 96 in all)

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

Luther was a bishop

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

THE HISTORY OF EUROPE AND THE HISTORY OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. SEE THE NAILING ON THE DOOR OF HIS OBJECTIONS TO INDULGENCES AND MORE (if I remember right it was 96 in all)

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Well, Charlie, you are wrong -- totally incorrect. He wasn't a bishop, and there were only 95 theses. Don't mess with someone (me) who has been Lutheran since her first breath and who was born on his birthday (but in a different year).

Writing in caps is rude and indicates you are shouting. Are you?

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Originally Posted by Wondergirl

James is talking about Abraham.

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Correct.

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Some of James' hearers used the doctrine of justification by faith alone

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There is no such doctrine in the Bible.

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as an excuse to be complacent about living in an ungodly way. James wanted to shake them up a bit and so deliberately used paradox in this verse. He then used the example of Abraham as the test for genuine faith -- first faith (Gen. 15:6) and then works (Gen. 22). In James 2:18, James says, "Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." He was referring to the genuineness of faith.

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Correct. Faith without works is dead and dead faith can't save:
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

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Originally Posted by Rebel1st

You may be right But if faith is GOD's Gift then we can only have it if GOD gives it to us.We can only exercise it if GOD gives it to us. Therefore it is not of our will but of GOD'S Will.Therefore it also follows that only GOD has FREE WILL and our will is subservient to HIS WILL.

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That doesn't follow because God gave us free will. This is proven in Scripture because He gave us a choice:
Deuteronomy 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

God would not have given us a choice if He had not first given us free will to make that choice.

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From this it follows the only TRUE FREE WILL IS GOD'S WILL. The above also can be discerned by the following line of thought. The choices man makes are the product of his mind and makes up his will. His mind is created and given to him by GOD. Man's thinking is shaped by his environment which also comes from GOD.Therefore the way he thinks and acts comes from GOD. So again we come to the conclusion that man's will is subservient to GOD

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The correct conclusion is that man's will is SUPPOSED to be subservient to God's. But God has given man the freedom to uh, no pun intended, rebel. If men rebel against God, they become disobedient and will not be saved, but cast into the lake of fire.