[ETWolverine]

Hello again, p:

Interestingly, the Wolverine fails to mention that the USA IMPOSED the Shah upon the Iranian people, as the USA is want to do. He came to power during World War II after a CIA organized coup of Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq.

I wonder why he doesn't mention stuff like that??? Believe his posts at your own peril.

excon

What does that have to do with the government of Iraq? What does the events of 60 years ago in Iran have to do with the events of today in Iraq?

Nothing, that's what.

You know I'm right, you have no argument to counter it, and so AGAIN you try to change the subject in order to muddy the waters.

The bottom line is we didn't IMPOSE anything on the Iraqis. They chose for themselves after being freed from Saddam Hussein's regime in what you refer to as an "unmitigated disaster".

Wrong again, excon. You really should stop while you're behind.

Elliot

[phlanx]

The bottom line is we didn't IMPOSE anything on the Iraqis.

Elliot

Just War!

[inthebox]

Yes but you have left out the compensations, the Merc, the Boat, the house, Your surely don't expect it to be an easy ride but what business doesn't need a business loan to get started and a certain amount of effort to get established. Once you are established you can opt for less hours and use your expertise to manage your investments. Don't expect us to feel sorry for you, most doctor live a life the rest of us can only dream of

Before you get to the compensation, did you see the sacrifices. That compensation is EARNED. The same people who have the will, the work ethic, the intelligence can take their talent elswhere and make a living in other ways.

22yo - bachelors degree from college,
24 yo MBA - go into finance
You see the potential compensation, 6 years in at the age of 30, a high 5 figure if not more is possible. A physician is maybe 1-2 years out of residency, working > 40 hours a week, and on average close to if not more than 6 figure debt.

Do you know any physicians personally? I do. They all don't drive luxury imports, heck some don't even know how to play golf. A lot get multiple middle of the night telephone calls, and if you are a surgeon or OB-GYN that can mean hours doing an emergency procedure in the middle of the night, then working a full day. Could you do that? Do you have what it takes?

Granted there are jobs like, teacher, underground coal miner, police, farmer, combat soldier etc. that are just as stressful, but why is it there is no outcry over the salaries in the entertainment industry?

Who are you to determine what anyone makes? Unless you are an employer. What makes a doctor's salary the subject of your envy? Yet you don't comment on the salary of an Alex Rodriguez, or Kobe Bryant, or Oprah, or Bill Gates or Tiger Woods?

You see, I have read about their backgrounds, I know that they are among the best at what they do, they have worked very hard to earn what they do, and have the talent and the smarts to parlay that into fortunes. That is the wonder of a capitalistic, free market economy. You can elevate yourself by working hard. I celebrate the achievements of others. This country was founded on hard work not handouts and entitlements. YOU DON'T HAVE TO RELY ON GOVERNMENT REDISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH to live life . That is the socialist / communist/ statist mentality. Class envy and dependency on government.
To meet every need, and a disregard for individual merit and liberty.


G&P

[ETWolverine]

Just War!

Actually, Saddam Hussein imposed the war. If he had met his obligations under the cease-fire agreement he signed in 1991, the war would have been avoided. His actions imposed war on Iraq.

Actually, we did impose something on Iraq... freedom from a dead tyrant, the freedom to choose their own government. But I'm not going to apologize for that imposition.

Elliot

[George_1950]

Actually, we did impose something on Iraq... freedom from a dead tyrant, the freedom to choose their own government. But I'm not gonna apologize for that imposition.

Elliot

Great point: let Obama prance around the world apologizing for the freedom and liberty provided by the blood and sacrifices of so many Americans.

[phlanx]

Elliot

I was being sarcastic - Of course we have imposed conditions on them, cultural infleunce, new markets etc, shame you don't relaise that, and besides, if you want to get picky, then it could have been Gulf1 I was talking about

[paraclete]

Actually, Saddam Hussein imposed the war. If he had met his obligations under the cease-fire agreement he signed in 1991, the war would have been avoided. His actions imposed war on Iraq.

Actually, we did impose something on Iraq... freedom from a dead tyrant, the freedom to choose their own government. But I'm not gonna apologize for that imposition.

Elliot

His agreement wasn't with the US, the US had no right to enforce anything. There is so much misinformation about all of this including Iraq's choice of the form of government. Democracy doesn't fit the Muslim culture.

You should apologise to the thousands of Iraqi who have died unnecessarily. If they wanted a war of liberation it was up to them. They have demonstrated a capability.

When are you going to liberate Iran?

Perhaps you would like to liberate Venezeula?

Should the US liberate Gaza and Lebanon?

North Korea?

How's the liberation of Afghanistan going?

Your argument is spirious

[paraclete]

Great point: let Obama prance around the world apologizing for the freedom and liberty provided by the blood and sacrifices of so many Americans.

Oh please let's not get into a round of "rally round the flag boys". What about the blood and sacrifice of the Iraqi. Has that been any less than the americans, no 50 times more, no it's just that americans count the lives of every one else at a much lesser value

[George_1950]

Oh please let's not get into a round of "rally round the flag boys". What about the blood and sacrifice of the Iraqi. Has that been any less than the americans, no 50 times more, no it's just that americans count the lives of every one else at a much lesser value

You know how to read? Do you comprehend? I said nothing about a flag and leave that rubbish to fascists/liberals/progressives etc.

[excon]

The bottom line is we didn't IMPOSE anything on the Iraqis.

Hello again, El:

Sounds kind of like ohsohappy's signature, doesn't it?

"I did not hit you. . . I simply high-fived your face."

Silly Republicans.

excon

[phlanx]

Great point: let Obama prance around the world apologizing for the freedom and liberty provided by the blood and sacrifices of so many Americans.

I find that statement disrespectful to all nationonalities and all people who have died in the name of freedom of choice!

[N0help4u]

Yeah you are right Phlanx he has the freedom to choose to prance all around the world apologizing and he has the right to take off to Broadway for a date with his wife and he has the right to have rock concerts at the Whitehouse to broaden his kids horizens in music and he has the right to bankrupt America with the programs he is pushing through and he has the right to sit over a $250. Lunch plate discussing how poor Americans can live on $250. A week. He has the right to a lot of things.

[excon]

What does that have to do with the government of Iraq? What does the events of 60 years ago in Iran have to do with the events of today in Iraq?

Nothing, that's what.

Great point: let Obama prance around the world apologizing for the freedom and liberty provided by the blood and sacrifices of so many Americans.

Hello George:

Here's what you righty's miss. We DID mess around with the politics of Iran and we DID put a guy WE liked in charge... Yes, we DID that. No, it didn't matter to us what the Iranians wanted. Elliot doesn't even deny it, which is pretty strange right there...

But he, like you, doesn't think the Iranians have a memory, or if they do, they shouldn't, or something pretty stupid like that. I really don't know what he's saying... Same with you...

So, here's the deal... As long as you think the Arabs are mad at us because they don't like freedom, or our way, and NOT because of what WE DID to them, we're doomed to never ending attacks...

PLUS, as long as you call correctly identifying what WE DID, as an apology, then you're dooming us to even MORE and MORE attacks...

WHY would you want to do that to us?? Do you hate America soooo badly??

excon

[George_1950]

Hello George:
...
So, here's the deal.... As long as you think the Arabs are mad at us because they don't like freedom, or our way, and NOT because of what WE DID to them, we're doomed to never ending attacks....

PLUS, as long as you call correctly identifying what WE DID, as an apology, then you're dooming us to even MORE and MORE attacks....
...

excon

You keep pulling for the Islamo-fascists; that's your choice. I'm with those who desire personal liberty and freedom, with no apologies.

[excon]

You keep pulling for the Islamo-fascists; that's your choice. I'm with those who desire personal liberty and freedom, with no apologies.

Hello again, George:

And you'll keep imposing it on them whether they like it or not. If they b1tch about it, don't apologize - bomb 'em instead.. They'll get to liking this freedom thing, or you'll keep bombing 'em till they do.

I understand. Really, I do.

excon

[speechlesstx]

Now that we're done talking about Islamo-fascism, back to the Obamacare debate. The GOP alternative would cost $61 billion, reduce the deficit by $68 billion and cut insurance premiums, as opposed to the Democrat plan which will cost as much $1.8 trillion, cut Medicare benefits and increase the already mammoth deficit.

A Preliminary Analysis of a Substitute Amendment to H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act

This evening, CBO released a preliminary analysis of a substitute amendment to H.R. 3962, the Affordable Health Care for America Act, proposed by Representative John Boehner, the Republican Leader in the House of Representatives. CBO and the staff of the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that the amendment would reduce federal deficits by $68 billion over the 2010-2019 period; it would also slightly reduce federal budget deficits in the following decade, relative to those projected under current law, with a total effect during that decade that is in a broad range between zero and one-quarter percent of gross domestic product.

That amendment contains several provisions that are intended to increase rates of insurance coverage by reducing its costs or subsidizing its purchase, including:

· Regulatory reforms in the small group and non-group markets, including establishing association health plans (insurance coverage that is offered to members of an association) and individual membership associations, and allowing states to establish interstate compacts with a unified regulatory structure;

· A State Innovations grant program to provide federal payments to states that achieve specified reductions in the number of uninsured individuals or in the premiums for small group or individually purchased policies;

· Federal funding for states to use for high-risk pools in the individual insurance market and reinsurance programs in the small group market; and

· Changes to health savings accounts (HSAs) to allow funds in such accounts to be used to pay premiums under certain circumstances, to make net contributions to HSAs eligible for the saver’s tax credit, and to provide a 60-day grace period for medical expenses incurred prior to the establishment of an HSA.

CBO and JCT estimate that those provisions would increase federal budget deficits by about $8 billion over the 2010-2019 period, reducing the number of nonelderly people without health insurance by about 3 million in 2019 and leaving about 52 million nonelderly residents uninsured. The share of legal nonelderly residents with insurance coverage in 2019—83 percent—would be roughly in line with the current share.

Other provisions of the amendment would alter federal spending and revenues in significant ways. The key provisions include:

· Limits on costs related to medical malpractice (“tort reform”), including capping noneconomic and punitive damages and making changes in the allocation of liability;

· Requirements that the Secretary of Health and Human Services adopt and regularly update standards for electronic administrative transactions that enable electronic funds transfers, claims management processes, and verification of eligibility, among other administrative tasks;

· Establishment of an abbreviated approval pathway for follow-on biologics (biological products that are highly similar to or interchangeable with their brand-name counterparts); and

· An increase in funding for HHS investigations into fraud and abuses.

CBO anticipates that the combination of provisions in the amendment would reduce average private health insurance premiums per enrollee in the United States, relative to what they would be under current law-by 7 percent to 10 percent in the small group market, by 5 percent to 8 percent for individually purchased insurance, and by zero to 3 percent in the large group market. Those are averages, however, and they are subject to a great deal of uncertainty; some individuals and families in each market would see different results.

And by the way, unemployment just hit 10 percent and the economy is what won NJ and VA for Republicans. Go ahead, support your fiscal and health care nightmare and ignore common sense solutions.

[ETWolverine]

Hello George:

Here's what you righty's miss. We DID mess around with the politics of Iran and we DID put a guy WE liked in charge... Yes, we DID that. No, it didn't matter to us what the Iranians wanted. Elliot doesn't even deny it, which is pretty strange right there...

But he, like you, doesn't think the Iranians have a memory, or if they do, they shouldn't, or something pretty stupid like that. I really don't know what he's saying.... Same with you....

So, here's the deal.... As long as you think the Arabs are mad at us because they don't like freedom, or our way, and NOT because of what WE DID to them, we're doomed to never ending attacks....

PLUS, as long as you call correctly identifying what WE DID, as an apology, then you're dooming us to even MORE and MORE attacks....

WHY would you wanna do that to us????? Do you hate America soooo badly???

excon

Still can't respond to the issue of Iraq, can you.

You are stuck on something that happened 60 years ago in Iran, mistake or not, because you know I'm right about IRAQ and just can't deal with it.

You can't stick to the point at hand because you can't admit to being wrong. We correctly point out that we didn't force Iraq to choose anything, and that they chose their own method of government... and you can't handle that, so you point to Iran in the 1940s.

You want to condemn the USA so badly that you have to talk about things that happened 60 years ago to prove it, and ignore what happened just 5 years ago. How desperate is that?

Elliot

[phlanx]

Still can't respond to the issue of Iraq, can you.

You are stuck on something that happened 60 years ago in Iran, mistake or not, because you know I'm right about IRAQ and just can't deal with it.

You can't stick to the point at hand because you can't admit to being wrong. We correctly point out that we didn't force Iraq to choose anything, and that they chose their own method of government... and you can't handle that, so you point to Iran in the 1940s.

You want to condemn the USA so badly that you have to talk about things that happened 60 years ago to prove it, and ignore what happened just 5 years ago. How desperate is that?

Elliot

No Elliot, democracy wasn't pushed onto them was it?

U.S. Determined to See Iraq Become a Democracy, Powell Says

DefenseLink News Article: Bush: People of Islamic World Must Choose Democracy

[NeedKarma]

no elliot, democracy wasnt pushed onto them was it?

u.s. Determined to see iraq become a democracy, powell says

defenselink news article: Bush: People of islamic world must choose democracy

Game, set and match!

[ETWolverine]

Really?

Because we wanted it to happen is proof that we FORCED them to accept it?

Tell me, which American soldiers forced 20 million Iraqis to vote for their Constitution and then three months later for their government? Because we have very good records showing how the elections turned out, and 80% of them voted for a Constitutional Parlimentary Democratic system.

Did American soldiers force them to vote that way? Did they rig the elections? No, they didn't. The Iraqis came out to vote for themselves... they chose for themselves.

Unless you can show some evidence that we FORCED 80% of the Iraqi people to vote for something they didn't want or rigged the election, you got nothing.

NOW it's game, set and match.

Elliot