[ETWolverine]

All right.

I make in the high-five figure range... bordering on 6 figures.

I went through 12 years of private school education at roughly $10,000 a year for tuition before going to Brooklyn College for roughly $1500 per semester. Because I only went to college part-time, I went for 6 years.

Total education cost: approx $138,000.

And even with all that information, you don't understand the point I'm making with itsamor.

So watch and learn.

Elliot

[phlanx]

Salvo

What ever you achieve in life you should be proud of it, if you realise your dreams then you should be happy, money doesn't always do this for people

For me, I had both private and public eductaion, but I have learnt more in life after I left school than I did during

Personally I earn enough to keep me and my family happy, and can earn more if needed

[excon]

So you think that our not being attacked in 8 years after having been attacked roughly every year of the prior 30 was an accident?

Hello again, Elliot:

Actually we HAVE been attacked. Otherwise 4,000 American soldiers wouldn't be dead, and they are. Why should they come here to attack us, when we put our soldiers in their back yard? All they have to do is put a bomb on their street and there's a few dead Americans... We make it EASY for them to attack us.

You sure do count funny.

excon

[inthebox]

Exactly, all they have to do is bomb - ask Madrid, London, Bali, Pakistan etc. post 9-11.

The lives of 4000 lost are to be thanked and respected for the work they have done protecting us and ensuring our liberty.



G&P

[phlanx]

So you think that our not being attacked in 8 years after having been attacked roughly every year of the prior 30 was an accident?

Let's put it this way... if for 30 years you were getting attacked by mosquitoes, and then suddenly in the past 8 years you didn't, I'd wonder what you were doing differently, because it would seem to have been effective.

You, of course, would chalk it up to accident.



Yeah... about that unmitigated disaster...

War in Iraq has accomplished:

1) Freedom for 25 million Iraqis from a dictatorial regime,
2) The creation of a parlimentary democracy,
3) The formation of a national police force and military that is increasingly taking charge of its own national security,
4) Increased employment,
5) Increased wages,
6) Increased productivity,
7) Increased oil production,
8) New schools, hospitals and other infrastructure necessary to grow society,
9) reflooding of the marshlands of southern Iraq which were intentionally drained by Saddam Hussein and which destroyed the culture of Marsh Arabs living there. We have rebuilt the marshlands and given the Marsh Arabs a place to live again.
10) reinstituted a non-corrupt, fair Iraqi judicial system.
11) Reinsitituted free press in Iraq.
12) Ended the factional wars within Iraq.
13) the destruction of 38,000 chemical munitions, 480,000 litres of chemical agents and 1.8 million litres of precursors of chemical agents. (You didn't know about that one, did you?)

And, of course, there's # 14) We have not had a terrorist attack against us in 8 years.

Yeah... I can see where you'd call all of that an "unmitigated disaster"....

NOT!!!!

Elliot

Firstly I am not saying that what both our nations have achieved in Iraq was not worthwhile because I agree with elliot in this

However Elliot, you are saying when your attacked then it is okay to press your values on another country?

[ETWolverine]

Hello again, Elliot:

Actually we HAVE been attacked. Otherwise 4,000 American soldiers wouldn't be dead, and they are. Why should they come here to attack us, when we put our soldiers in their back yard? All they have to do is put a bomb on their street and there's a few dead Americans... We make it EASY for them to attack us.

You sure do count funny.

excon

Excon,

Do you really see no difference between the two? You think there is no difference between the soldier who dies on the battlefield to defend his country and the civilian who dies in an office building blown up by a terrorist?

Both have died tragicaly. But only one of them chose their destiny and their duty. One is the death of some guy at work. The other is the death of a man or woman who chose to stand between the enemy and civillians to protect them.

You really see no difference?

Has your mind become that addled with age?

Or has the addled effect been caused by liberalism?

Elliot

[paraclete]

As ET mentioned:


Physician in the US:

AFTER college, [ 22yo ]
4 years mendical school [ 26 yo ]
at least 3 if not more, 7 for a lot of surgical subspecialties, [ 29 yo 35 yo ]

in the majority of cases 6 figure debt

onto a career - 60 - 80 hour weeks are not unusual

now that one makes top 25 % of incomes or more, MORE TAXES

At anytime, by anyone, for whatever reason you can loose your livelihood, your reputation, your assets by a malparactice suit: the majority of which have no merit, or are dismissed, but the legal, emotional and time costs can never be recovered.


So, if you have finished college, your looking at least 7years, 6 figure debt, long hours, more taxes, the threat of malpractice, and you have to run a business. Then you have an administration that is seeking to limit you income and raise your taxes. Still want to be a doctor?




G&P

Yes but you have left out the compensations, the Merc, the Boat, the house, Your surely don't expect it to be an easy ride but what business doesn't need a business loan to get started and a certain amount of effort to get established. Once you are established you can opt for less hours and use your expertise to manage your investments. Don't expect us to feel sorry for you, most doctor live a life the rest of us can only dream of

[ETWolverine]

Firstly I am not saying that what both our nations have achieved in Iraq was not worthwhile because i agree with elliot in this

However Elliot, you are saying when your attacked then it is okay to press your values on another country?

Which values would those be?

I seem to remember a vote by 80% of the Iraqi people to accept their own system of parlimentary democracy and their own constitution. I seem to remember at least two other votes by 80% of the Iraqi people to elect their leadership.

Nobody forced them to accept democracy. They could just as easily have created a monarchy or a dictatorship, or a centralized communist/socialist government, or any other form of government. Nobody forced them to accept a PARLIMENTARY democracy like you have instead of a REPUBLICAN democracy like the one we have. Nobody forced them to vote for their current leadership. They chose these things themselves, and they did it with the vast majority of their people voting for it.

Exactly which values do you think we forced on them? Which values did they not choose for themselves and had foisted on them by us? This is a common argument and assumption, especially from anti-war groups and individuals, but I have yet to see it substantiated.

Elliot

[paraclete]

Nobody forced them to accept democracy. They could just as easily have created a monarchy or a dictatorship, or a centralized communist/socialist government, or any other form of government. Nobody forced them to accept a PARLIMENTARY democracy like you have instead of a REPUBLICAN democracy like the one we have. Nobody forced them to vote for their current leadership. They chose these things themselves, and they did it with the vast majority of their people voting for it.


Elliot

Don't be niave Elliot you know Iraq could not have accepted any form of government other than they did. Imposing democracy instead of dictatorship was Bush's policy. People vote for candidates, they don't vote for people who are not candidates. Democracy was the price of getting the US to leave, they paid the price but haven't got the goods and who knows what will develop in the future. Iraq has taken a predictable path, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Democracy

[phlanx]

Which values would those be?

I seem to remember a vote by 80% of the Iraqi people to accept their own system of parlimentary democracy and their own constitution. I seem to remember at least two other votes by 80% of the Iraqi people to elect their leadership.

Nobody forced them to accept democracy. They could just as easily have created a monarchy or a dictatorship, or a centralized communist/socialist government, or any other form of government. Nobody forced them to accept a PARLIMENTARY democracy like you have instead of a REPUBLICAN democracy like the one we have. Nobody forced them to vote for their current leadership. They chose these things themselves, and they did it with the vast majority of their people voting for it.

Exactly which values do you think we forced on them? Which values did they not choose for themselves and had foisted on them by us? This is a common argument and assumption, especially from anti-war groups and individuals, but I have yet to see it substantiated.

Elliot

As usual missing the point, the institutions we have set up in Iraq are based on the ideals of our police force, water board, electricity grids, etc etc etc - Because we were the ones who trained them it is therefore our values and influence on them

Or has this one past you by as well?

As for democratic - well that was a new idea to them as Iraq has never been democratic, so where did they get the idea of democracy - hmm I wonder!

And pal, I am in no way anti war - I see the point of war, particular when you stay behind to clean up and sort out , so please don't fool yourself that I fit into a neat little box that america loves to have people in

And by the way, when referring to Iraq, when I say we, I mean the US and the UK as we both worked together for a common goal, but of course there was no influence from either side to each other that would ultimatly lead both of our sides to change policy for a better way of doing things - oh that couldn't happen could it!

[phlanx]

Don't be niave Elliot you know Iraq could not have accepted any form of government other than they did. Imposing democracy instead of dictatorship was Bush's policy. People vote for candidates, they don't vote for people who are not candidates. Democracy was the price of getting the US to leave, they paid the price but haven't got the goods and who knows what will develop in the future. Iraq has taken a predictable path, Monarchy, Dictatorship, Democracy

I will add this Clete, BP have just signed a contract to pump oil in parts of Iraq, so now you have foreign investment which means the workers will be trained to a western standard, the structure of the company withhin Iraq will be of western design, and the government their will start to receive oil to sell on the open market, I think BP are being paid $2 per barrel to start with, so not a bad deal, and with money coming in they will hopefully stay with an elected democracy and invest the money in services for the rest of the nation

The path is their for them to take, but I can't see them doing it without stabilisers for awhile

[tomder55]

Cheers to the coalition . My favorite moment of the war was the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders bayonet charge.

[phlanx]

Just in case nobody knows about it tom

Bayonet Brits kill 35 rebels | The Sun |News

And another

BBC NEWS | UK | Military cross for bayonet charge ( let me know if you can't see this - don't know if it is country protected)

Makes me proud to be british!

[ETWolverine]

As usual missing the point, the institutions we have set up in Iraq are based on the ideals of our police force, water board, electricity grids, etc etc etc - Because we were the ones who trained them it is therefore our values and influence on them

Or has this one past you by as well?

So, let me get this straight... you consider waterworks, electric grids, police forces, etc. to be "values"?

We taught them methods to build an infrastructure that they were lacking. And you consider that to be "pressing our values on them"? I'm not reading anything into this or putting words in your mouth. This is what YOU are saying.

Do you really consider these things to be "values" the way democracy, liberty, justice, etc. are "values?

In direct answer to your question, I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH USING OUR KNOWLEDGE OF ENGINEERING, ARCHITECTUR, BUILDING AND ORGANIZATIONAL SKILLS TO HELP THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

Do you?

There is a whole world of difrference between that and "values?

In direct answer to your question, I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH USING OUR KNOWLEDGE OF ENGINEERING, ARCHITECTUR, BUILDING AND ORGANIZATIONAL SKILLS TO HELP THE IRAQI PEOPLE.

Do you?

There is a whole world of difrference between that and ".

So, no, I wasn't missing the point, but I think YOU are.

As for democratic - well that was a new idea to them as Iraq has never been democratic, so where did they get the idea of democracy - hmm I wonder!

How about from their next door neighbors in Iran... who until the Shah was ousted operated as a democratic society. Or how about from watching us and DECIDING FOR THEMSELVES that this is what they wanted. Remember that 80% of them voted for this... it wasn't FORCED on them. Teaching is a whole different animal from FORCING.

And pal, I am in no way anti war - I see the point of war, particular when you stay behind to clean up and sort out , so please don't fool yourself that i fit into a neat little box that america loves to have people in

I didn't say you were. I said that your argument comes most often from those who are. Please read the post again... and then come back and tell me about "reading between the lines" and putting words in people's mouths.

And by the way, when referring to Iraq, when I say we, I mean the US and the UK as we both worked together for a common goal, but of course there was no influence from either side to each other that would ultimatly lead both of our sides to change policy for a better way of doing things - oh that couldn't happen could it!

No disagreement there. You guys did your part. You played it straight up with us. Never said you didn't. I was just answering excon's argument that there were no gains from Iraq and that the whole thing was an "unmitigated disaster". Clearly you disagree with that point as well.

And since when does "influencing Iraq" become the same as "pressing our values on them"? Of course we influenced them. Where's the problem with that. As long as we don't FORCE them, where's the issue?

Elliot

[excon]

How about from their next door neighbors in Iran... who until the Shah was ousted operated as a democratic society.

Hello again, p:

Interestingly, the Wolverine fails to mention that the USA IMPOSED the Shah upon the Iranian people, as the USA is want to do. He came to power during World War II after a CIA organized coup of Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddeq.

I wonder why he doesn't mention stuff like that?? Believe his posts at your own peril.

excon

[paraclete]

I will add this Clete, BP have just signed a contract to pump oil in parts of Iraq, so now you have foreign investment which means the workers wil be trained to a western standard, the structure of the company withhin Iraq will be of western design, and the government their will start to recieve oil to sell on the open market, I think BP are being paid $2 per barrel to start with, so not a bad deal, and with money coming in they will hopefully stay with an elected democracy and invest the money in services for the rest of the nation

The path is their for them to take, but I can't see them doing it without stabilisers for awhile

So BP, a multinational gets a contract, whoopido! This is "democracy" in action!

I seem to remember that long ago Iraq had a viable oil industry even under a dictatorship. I expect you are about to tell me that this is better because more than one person might benefit. Without getting involved in historic detail, we have the richest nation in the middle east reduced to paupership and then we have multinationals being awarded contracts to exploit resources and this is democracy in action. We will see where they invest the money, perhaps not in palaces, not in skud missiles, perhaps in shopping malls, perhaps in numbered accounts and I expect they don't really need the "stabilizers" in the form of US troops in bases to help them do it. I expect they see themselves being able to do it alone

[N0help4u]

No where does it say it will be free. We will have to pay for it according to our income.
Somebody has to pay for it whether the government says the employer or you have to pay or it comes out of our taxes it IS going to cost US.

[RedHead4991]

Ever heard of Medicare/ Medicaid? Both are government healthcares. Look how well those worked out. President Obama should fix up those health care plans before he makes a knew one, which will cost billions of dollars, and need I remind you of the current recession that we are in? Who does he think is going to pay for this?

[N0help4u]

Exactly. What has the government EVER fixed?They made a mess of every financial thing they ever got involved in.

This says it all

YouTube - The Government Can - Tim Hawkins (cc)

[George_1950]

No where does it say it will be free. We will have to pay for it according to our income.
Somebody has to pay for it whether the government says the employer or you have to pay or it comes out of our taxes it IS going to cost US.

The gov't can't run the railroads, post office, VA, Fannie, Freddie, Farty or Darty; why on earth would anyone give the Feds 'health care'? Because it makes someone feel good and gives someone else a lot of power. All power to the gov't; screw the people.