[rockie100]

Some Christian religions do not celerbrate these holidays. Such as Jahovah's Witnesses. The only thing the bible states to do yearly is to remember Jesus death. A memorial if you will.

[N0help4u]

Exactly you can feel the anointing on any music if the anointing is there.
I don't really listen to heavy metal Christian or non Christian but I know Resurrection Band is heavy metal and they are for real Christians.
I don't know if their music is all that anointed but I don't think it is demonic either.

I like Christafari and the old DC Talk rap.

I love really anointed music.

[JoeT777]

To the research that I've done the early church allowed this holiday to be celebrated as a tool to draw pagans to Christianity. That is not how you draw people in....Jesus Christ never participated in secular things to draw them....

But the feast was never changed, the name changed. thats all.....That just like this secular world has heavy metal....but you have the church that trys to be like the world....now we have christian heavy metal....which is demon inspired music can't be done.

The bible never instructed us to draw the world in by being just like them...God doesn't work like that.

It's my understanding Catholic's avoid 'heavy metal' in Church; light metal as well.

But, I think you have the wrong understanding of 'feast' when used in this context. From memory, Christmas came from the early Catholic celebration. Those celebrations are called Ecclesiastical Feasts. It declared a Holy Day to celebrate the Eucharist, celebrating our spiritual faith and the history of our redemption, the memory of the Virgin Mother of Christ, or of His apostles, martyrs, and saints, in a special Mass. Now that's not to say that certain delicacies weren't enjoyed afterwards. So in antiquity, when you read about feasts or celebrations, the normal context is going to Church to worship. On Christmas we celebrate the Eucharist and celebrate in prayer (a 'feast') of Christ's birth; more often than not at midnight. If you're interested follow the link, it follows the celebration as far back as Irenaeus (a 1st century catechist, i.e. teacher) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas

No, we don't want to be 'just like' people in Christ's day - they didn't have running water for proper bathing. That's not the point. The point is a sacred worship of God.

JoeT

[truck 41]

Hello, you are right, christmas and easter are pagan celebrations.
But God seeks those who will worship him in spirit and in truth, yes christians have gone and taken these celebrations, and use them to celebrate the birth of Christ and his resurection, but we should be thankful that Christ has dominated these celebrations.
Even though most people celebrate these to say they are Christians, and probably don't step foot in a church the rest of the year.
So those of us who do know the true meaning of the birth of Christ, and his death, and resurection should celebrate it every day, and especially during those holidays, not as the world does, but as we know is pleasing to God.
Let Christ continue to dominate those holidays before the easter bunny, and santa claus take Christ completely out of those celebrations.
God Bless America! God Bless You! ----- Zeke-----

[N0help4u]

It's my understanding Catholic's avoid 'heavy metal' in Church; light metal as well.

But, I think you have the wrong understanding of 'feast' when used in this context. From memory, Christmas came from the early Catholic celebration. Those celebrations are called Ecclesiastical Feasts. It declared a Holy Day to celebrate the Eucharist, celebrating our spiritual faith and the history of our redemption, the memory of the Virgin Mother of Christ, or of His apostles, martyrs, and saints, in a special Mass. Now that's not to say that certain delicacies weren't enjoyed afterwards. So in antiquity, when you read about feasts or celebrations, the normal context is going to Church to worship. On Christmas we celebrate the Eucharist and celebrate in prayer (a 'feast') of Christ's birth; more often than not at midnight. If you're interested follow the link, it follows the celebration as far back as Irenaeus (a 1st century catechist, i.e. teacher) CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas

No, we don't want to be 'just like' people in Christ's day. That's not the point. The point is a sacred worship of God.

But where does the winter solstice feast fit in that that is the question
How much pagan are you putting in the celebration of Christ's birth or resurrection?

The Persian Mithras cult spread during the 3rd and 4th centuries B.C.E. and predates Christian ceremonies and rites such as: baptism, communion wafer, and Sunday rest. On December 25, the sacrifice of a bull celebrated the Sol invictus (the invincible sun) and signaled the birth of a young sun god who sprang from a rock or a cave in the form of a newborn infant.

The Romans celebrated the Winter Solstice on December 25th as a renewing of the sun every year. Also the Romans celebrated the festival of the Saturnalia from December 17th to the 24th to honor Saturn, the god of grain and agriculture. The festival consisted of a period of goodwill, devoted to visiting friends and the giving of gifts.

At the beginning of the first century, Christianity emerged but not until the 4th century did Christians celebrate the birth of Jesus. The motive behind the introduction of this celebration aimed at subverting the practice of pagan rituals such as Mithra and Saturnalia. Pope Liberus introduced the Nativity on December 25th 354 C.E.. By the 5th century, the event became so customary that it began to mark the beginning of the ceremonial year.

[Fr_Chuck]

One has to remember that anything, even the cross can have bad meanings also. Everything from a tree ( worshiped by some) to playing music in the church.

We have to remember that the it was illegal to be a Christian in the early church, to do so, could mean death.

So they often borrowed practices or held their celebrations during the time the pagans did thiers so they would not be caught.

Try having a celbration on Dec 10th if it was illegal to do so, but you wait till Dec 25 no problem everyone is party

[JoeT777]

The claim in the OP was that feast days were really pagan celebrations, I was showing how Christmas was established.

Christianity (Catholicism) began in Caesarea Philippi where Matthew recorded Christ’s commission, appointing His Prime Apostle to be the rock on which He’d build His Church, giving His protection that not even the gates of hell could prevail against. (Cf. Matt 16:18)


JoeT

[JoeT777]

In regard to Mithras this is all I have, its' not much but I don't think any historian can add much.

A similarity between Mithra and Christ struck even early observers, such as Justin, Tertullian, and other Fathers, and in recent times has been urged to prove that Christianity is but an adaptation of Mithraism, or at most the outcome of the same religious ideas and aspirations (e.g. Robertson, "Pagan Christs", 1903). Against this erroneous and unscientific procedure, which is not endorsed by the greatest living authority on Mithraism, the following considerations must be brought forward.

(1) Our knowledge regarding Mithraism is very imperfect; some 600 brief inscriptions, mostly dedicatory, some 300 often fragmentary, exiguous, almost identical monuments, a few casual references in the Fathers or Acts of the Martyrs, and a brief polemic against Mithraism which the Armenian Eznig about 450 probably copied from Theodore of Mopsuestia (d. 428) who lived when Mithraism was almost a thing of the past -- these are our only sources, unless we include the Avesta in which Mithra is indeed mentioned, but which cannot be an authority for Roman Mithraism with which Christianity is compared. Our knowledge is mostly ingenious guess-work; of the real inner working of Mithraism and the sense in which it was understood by those who professed it at the advent of Christianity, we know nothing.

(2) Some apparent similarities exist; but in a number of details it is quite probable that Mithraism was the borrower from Christianity. Tertullian about 200 could say: "hesterni sumus et omnia vestra implevimus" ("we are but of yesterday, yet your whole world is full of us"). It is not unnatural to suppose that a religion which filled the whole world, should have been copied at least in some details by another religion which was quite popular during the third century. Moreover the resemblances pointed out are superficial and external. Similarity in words and names is nothing; it is the sense that matters. During these centuries Christianity was coining its own technical terms, and naturally took names, terms, and expressions current in that day; and so did Mithraism. But under identical terms each system thought its own thoughts. Mithra is called a mediator; and so is Christ; but Mithra originally only in a cosmogonic or astronomical sense; Christ, being God and man, is by nature the Mediator between God and man. And so in similar instances. Mithraism had a Eucharist, but the idea of a sacred banquet is as old as the human race and existed at all ages and amongst all peoples. Mithra saved the world by sacrificing a bull; Christ by sacrificing Himself. It is hardly possible to conceive a more radical difference than that between Mithra taurochtonos and Christ crucified. Christ was born of a Virgin; there is nothing to prove that the same was believed of Mithra born from the rock. Christ was born in a cave; and Mithraists worshipped in a cave, but Mithra was born under a tree near a river. Much as been made of the presence of adoring shepherds; but their existence on sculptures has not been proven, and considering that man had not yet appeared, it is an anachronism to suppose their presence.

(3) Christ was an historical personage, recently born in a well-known town of Judea, and crucified under a Roman governor, whose name figured in the ordinary official lists. Mithra was an abstraction, a personification not even of the sun but of the diffused daylight; his incarnation, if such it may be called, was supposed to have happened before the creation of the human race, before all history. The small Mithraic congregations were like masonic lodges for a few and for men only and even those mostly of one class, the military; a religion that excludes the half of the human race bears no comparison to the religion of Christ. Mithraism was all comprehensive and tolerant of every other cult, the Pater Patrum himself was an adept in a number of other religions; Christianity was essential exclusive, condemning every other religion in the world, alone and unique in its majesty. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Mithraism


JoeT

[N0help4u]

OP is referring to the pagan feast that originated the Christmas day. The church later mixed Christs birth and the feasts you are referring to into the pagan feast/holiday.

[JoeT777]

OP is referring to the pagan feast that originated the Christmas day. The church later mixed Christs birth and the feasts you are referring to into the pagan feast/holiday.

That's the point the pagan feast didn't originate Christmas. Nor did Christians turn into pagans.

JoeT

[N0help4u]

My point is why would they mix them together when the Bible clearly says to be separate from Paganism.

[JoeT777]

As Fr_Chuck said, maybe to conceal the fact they were celebrating Christian feast days; which by the way was considered pagan by the polytheist of antiquity. They were hunted and killed, i.e. Martyred. It could simply be as I suggested, as a matter of coincidence the pagan feast day coincided with the Christian feast day. Its disingenuous draw an opinion of actions 2,000 years ago based on the simple fact that an occurrence of an event fell on a certain date. So an Ecclesial feast falling on the same day does not constitute fraternizing with the pagan?

By the way, I can’t find the word pagan or paganism in Scripture can you point me to a verse? Do your Scriptures tell you not to mix with the sinner?


JoeT

[N0help4u]

I never said do not mix with the sinner.
That is another related but separate topic

The Bible DOES discuss
Babylon
Witchcraft
The Old Testament is full of stories on pagan worship and how God called it idolatry.

Moses cautioned the children of Israel: “When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable way of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord, and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God. The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the Lord has not permitted you to do so” (Deuteronomy 18:9-14).

“For rebellion is like the sin of divination, and arrogance like the evil of idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has rejected you as king” (1 Samuel 23).

Leviticus 19:26 is that "observing times" is condemned literally in the same breath as eating blood, a practice clearly forbidden by the apostles in Acts 15 and 21. So, even from this one verse we can see quite clearly that the apostles considered the observance of times a pagan practice. And, since the apostles considered observing times a pagan practice, for a Christian to "observe times" would mean that they had incorporated a pagan practice into their worship of God and had, therefore, violated Deuteronomy 12:29-32 where God commands his people not to do unto Him what the pagans do unto their gods.

Both 2 Kings 21:6 and 2 Chronicles 33:6 associate the pagan practice of "observing times" as "provoking God to anger." Similarly, "provoking God to anger" is associated with idolatry in general in all the following verses: Deuteronomy 4:25, Deuteronomy 32:16-17, Judges 2:12, 1 Kings 14:9, 1 Kings 15:30, 1 Kings 16:2, 1 Kings 22:53, 2 Kings 17:11, 2 Kings 17:17, and 2 Kings 22:17.

What is significant about the phrase, "provoking the Lord to anger" is its similarity to Paul's words in 1 Corinthians 10, where Paul writes, "flee from idolatry" in verse 14, and then with regard to eating meats sacrificed to idols writes the following:

1 Corinthians 10:21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

in Exodus 20 verse 2, God refers to Egypt as the "house of bondage." No wonder Paul is borrowing this idea of "bondage" and "slavery" with regard to pagan practices in Galatians 4. But more importantly, in verse 5, God declares that the reason the Israelites are forbidden from idolatry is that God is "a jealous God." So, by referring to both "provoking the Lord" and to God being a jealous God in 1 Corinthians 10, Paul is clearly showing the partaking of pagan sacrificial meals is absolutely wrong and equivalent to idolatry, which is why Paul states "flee from idolatry." Clearly, Paul does not want Christians anywhere near pagan practices including eating meat sacrificed to idols and observing times.

Jeremiah 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs [0226] of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

At this point it is no surprise that this verse begins with God commanding his people not to learn the ways of the pagans, even as Deuteronomy 12 commands God's people not to practice the ways of the pagans unto the LORD God. However, here in Jeremiah we also find the peculiar statement that the "heathen are dismayed at the signs of heaven." And God tells his people Israel not to be "dismayed at the signs of heaven." But what does this phrase, "the signs of heaven" mean?

Jeremiah 10:2-4
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not

biblestudying.net

Occultism and Witchcraft in the Bible

[Wondergirl]

My point is why would they mix them together when the Bible clearly says to be separate from Paganism.

It was separate from paganism, didn't mix with it. It gave the pagans a sweet solution, like Christian missionaries in Africa teaching sun worshippers about the Son of God. The missionaries started with where the natives were and slowly brought them around to who the Son of God really was -- not a sun, but a son. The missionaries to the American Southwest and Texas did the same thing -- started with where the natives were spiritually and brought them around to Christianity.

[N0help4u]

So that should make it standard practice for Christians to think there is nothing wrong with Easter egg hunts and the other non Christian things that Christmas and Easter represent.

[Wondergirl]

So that should make it standard practice for Christians to think there is nothing wrong with Easter egg hunts and the other non Christian things that Christmas and Easter represent.

Christmas = birth of Jesus
Easter = resurrection of Jesus

My kids and I dyed eggs for Easter baskets and had a great time sharing the decorated eggs with each other and with other kids, along with sharing various kinds of candy. Bunnies and chicks mean new earthly life, just like Jesus means eternal life. Our Sunday School always made sure the kids knew the similarities and the differences.

[HelpinHere]

As far as I see it, YES, Christians kind of "took over" other festivals, but NO, that doesn't mean we shouldn't celebrate on them.

First of all, we should celebrate Christ. Why not do it on the well established days that are already there?
You didn't mix it with pagan-ism. That was a long time ago, and out of your control. You aren't celebrating paganistic views, or anything else.
You dye Easter eggs because it's tradition, celebrating the resurrection of Christ. You have a Christmas tree because it's tradition, celebrating the birth of Christ. NOT because it relates to any other source of praise for any other reason.

I DO agree, that if you intentions were mixed religions/beliefs, then you shouldnt' do it. But, if you are ONLY doing it to celebrate the holiday's "intended" purposes (on the standpoint of whatever the "intended" purpose is for your religion) they why does it matter? You may know that others use the same day, but if you believe that yours is the true reason, then I don't see why it should cause any problems.

Sorry, kind of back-tracking here, but I missed a whole page or two... :o

[artlady]

Jesus was born in April.if you are willing to traverse from the Bible and do some other homework:)

[HelpinHere]

Art, where is the proof of in which month Christ was born? I've never seen difinitive proof for any month, and I've looked.

EDIT: Just realized how arguementative that sounds. I was actually asking a question, not trying to say you are wrong. :)

[artlady]

Art, where is the proof of in which month Christ was born? I've never seen difinitive proof for any month, and I've looked.

EDIT: Just realized how arguementative that sounds. I was actually asking a question, not trying to say you are wrong. :)

There are many sources to indicate that April was the month. Proof ,that is no such thing.Much speculation would be a better way to phrase that.
Here are some links.
I'm not into debating this but I have found the facts to be pertinent.Not a website but what is known from scholars.

When Was Jesus Born?