Ask Me Help Desk - Good ol' Pagan Christmas

Im a christian and I found that actually Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus Christ at all. Jesus Christ's birth is not mention in the bible not once and every other source that I have check all say that his birth was never confirmed, unknown, not told. And after referring to history the early church never celebrated Christmas or "Christ Mass." Christmas is actually a continuation of the Feast of Saturnalia which doesn't celebrate our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, but on the other hand celebrates the pagan god Tammuz. And we have mass churches across the world that celebrate this holiday. In the book of Jeremiah, the 10th chapter even the custom of the Christmas tree is talked about. Christmas was celebrated way before the birth of Christ. Just think the mass media appeal that christmas has. Feel free to research this for yourself... please... What Im starting to realize is that people don't research anything anymore. We just accept anything that has been done throughout generations. I know this is way out of a lot of people's comfort zones. But be open-mind. I just want TRUTH.

Is there anyone familiar with these subject..

Luke 2:1-20 (New International Version)

Luke 2
The Birth of Jesus
1In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to his own town to register.
4So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child. 6While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

The Shepherds and the Angels
8And there were shepherds living out in the fields nearby, keeping watch over their flocks at night. 9An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is Christ[a] the Lord. 12This will be a sign to you: You will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger."
13Suddenly a great company of the heavenly host appeared with the angel, praising God and saying,
14"Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace to men on whom his favor rests."

15When the angels had left them and gone into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let's go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about."

16So they hurried off and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby, who was lying in the manger. 17When they had seen him, they spread the word concerning what had been told them about this child, 18and all who heard it were amazed at what the shepherds said to them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart. 20The shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things they had heard and seen, which were just as they had been told.

Footnotes:
Luke 2:11 Or Messiah. "The Christ" (Greek) and "the Messiah" (Hebrew) both mean "the Anointed One"; also in verse 26.

Source: BibleGateway.com - PassageLookup: Luke
(So I don't have to type it all myself.)

My opinion on the subject is this: That somewhere along the line, historians screwed up. (But surprise there!) They LOST when JC was actually born. They found the biggest holiday, and integrated "Christ Mass" into that, because they thought it would creat mass appeal to Christ. They were right. The only problem is instead of celebrating the birth of christ, we lost that, and now we should just celebrate his prescence in this world.

They took over another holiday because it would have been too hard to start a new one. All religions are guilty of it, but doesn't it just make life easier? I mean, if not, we would have 2 different holidays every day of the week. I don't know about you, but I can't afford to buy that many presents. :rolleyes:

a lot of religions borrow or adopt aspects from other religions or belief systems (yes there is a difference). If you burn a yule log, you are practicing an old pagan custom from the winter solstice also called yule, which happens to be around the time other faiths decided to throw in a holiday to distract people away from other holidays around the same time (christians aren't the only ones either). Churches, temples, and such were also started by pagans, and also the idea for sainthood, prayer beads (now called rosaries), not to mention the x-mas tree- where the yule log came from.
this is a subject I find very fascinating and while I am a pagan, I won't discredit any other holidays because I believe they have established their roots and traditions, and it's, really, not worth fighting over.

You are correct
Christmas and easter are pagan ceremonials for the winter solstice and the goddess of fertility
Christmas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The selection of December 25 for Christmas

Christmas - Was Jesus born on December 25th?

Luke 2,8: "That night some shepherds were in the fields outside the village guarding their flocks of sheep"... During winter nights sheep were normally held in stables. They were only left in the fields during warmer spring or summer nights.

I respect your perspective. And believe Im not trying to argue or anything. I just want to discuss this issue.

In Psalms 11:3 If the Foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?

You literally have millions of Christians that celebrate this holiday each year, they have christmas trees in their homes, wreaths, lights and navity scense. But look at the scripture, us as the body of Christ can't dabb in the world pull a custom we think is nice and put a Christian STAMP on it and call it holy. God forbids that. In the old testament he constantly confirmed his word by telling the children of Isreal to not take part in the traditions of man... We can not worship God in our own way, or the way we think we should.

There are so many religious traditions that are deceiving many. Christmas and Easter are just the small fraction.

You are right and
God forbids things that many religions endorse

Think about it. When we take part of these holidays, especially Christmas, we're basically taking part in idol worship and don't even know... In we're worshiping God in vain. And God can't receive that worship because its contaminated.

I agree. People like following what they believe though so it is hard convincing people.
Basically, you "insult" their religion you ''insult'' them that is the way they see it.
They get offended and say you are not respecting their right to believe what they believe.

That's because its popular to follow what the masses are doing just because its popular... no one takes a stand for the truth anymore.

There is a mass deption going on in the christian community.

Even in the book of Revelation it talk about how Satan will decieve the whole World...

Believe that process started a long time ago...

Yep the Bible says the way is narrow but the road to destruction is broad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

yep the Bible says the way is narrow but the road to destruction is broad.

Yep and that same scripture also that "And Few there be that find it"

The date for Christmas was unsettled for many centuries. The Gospels don’t give us any help. Back dating from Zachary’s Temple service can render Christ’s birth in late December. But all the computations based on the Temples feast days are unreliable. An approach was made using Old Testament festivals suggests a September date. Among the theories already discussed is the following:

The well-known solar feast...of Natalis Invicti, celebrated on 25 December, has a strong claim on the responsibility for our December date. For the history of the solar cult, its position in the Roman Empire, and syncretism with Mithraism, see Cumont's epoch-making "Textes et Monuments" etc., I, ii, 4, 6, p. 355. …

The earliest rapprochement of the births of Christ and the sun is in Cyprian, "De pasch. Comp.", xix, "O quam præclare providentia ut illo die quo natus est Sol . . . nasceretur Christus." — "O, how wonderfully acted Providence that on that day on which that Sun was born . . . Christ should be born."

In the fourth century, Chrysostom, "del Solst. Et Æquin." (II, p. 118, ed. 1588), says: "Sed et dominus noster nascitur mense decembris . . . VIII Kal. Ian. . . . Sed et Invicti Natalem appelant. Quis utique tam invictus nisi dominus noster? . . . Vel quod dicant Solis esse natalem, ipse est Sol iustitiæ." — "But Our Lord, too, is born in the month of December . . . the eight before the calends of January [25 December] . . ., But they call it the 'Birthday of the Unconquered'. Who indeed is so unconquered as Our Lord . . .? Or, if they say that it is the birthday of the Sun, He is the Sun of Justice."

Already Tertullian (Apol., 16; cf. Ad. Nat., I, 13; Orig. c. Cels., VIII, 67, etc) had to assert that Sol was not the Christians' God; Augustine (Tract xxxiv, in Joan. In P.L., XXXV, 1652) denounces the heretical identification of Christ with Sol.

Pope Leo I (Serm. xxxvii in nat. dom., VII, 4; xxii, II, 6 in P.L., LIV, 218 and 198) bitterly reproves solar survivals — Christians, on the very doorstep of the Apostles' basilica, turn to adore the rising sun. Sun-worship has bequeathed features to modern popular worship in Armenia, where Christians had once temporarily and externally conformed to the cult of the material sun (Cumont, op. cit., p. 356).

But even should a deliberate and legitimate "baptism" of a pagan feast be seen here no more than the transference of the date need be supposed. The "mountain-birth" of Mithra and Christ's in the "grotto" have nothing in common: Mithra's adoring shepherds (Cumont, op. cit., I, ii, 4, p. 304 sqq.) are rather borrowed from Christian sources than vice versa. (Source: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christmas )

What is the importance of a Christian feast being substituted for a pagan feast? This seems logical when teaching pagans Christianity; substitute Christian observances for pagan ones. Isn’t the real argument being made here is that there is no validity to Christianity? The logic used is that Christians took over a pagan feast day, then they too must be pagan. How is this true? Are you able to explain what difference a date on the calendar makes?

If we took ten steps from the wall, turned, closed our eyes and threw a dart at a calendar; wouldn’t it be likely we’d hit a date that some religion, or secular group, or an agrarian culture celebrated harvest, spring, winter, ‘big rain day,’ somewhere in the world, at some point in recorded history?

To my knowledge Easter eggs can’t necessarily be attributed to Catholics. And if Easter eggs could be attributed to Catholics I don’t understand how this would affect one’s faith. It’s a custom my family participates in – to my knowledge not one has been struck by lightning - yet.

JoeT

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeT777

To my knowledge Easter eggs can’t necessarily be attributed to Catholics. And if Easter eggs could be attributed to Catholics I don’t understand how this would affect one’s faith. It’s a custom my family participates in – to my knowledge not one has been struck by lightning - yet.

JoeT

Easter eggs are the goddess of fertility for the spring solstice
The Bible says to be separate from Pagan ways.

I know Christians that became Wiccans God didn't strike them with lightening yet either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

Easter eggs are the goddess of fertility for the spring solstice
The Bible says to be separate from Pagan ways.

I know Christians that became Wiccans God didn't strike them with lightening yet either.

You mean to tell me that if you eat an Easter Egg it compromises your soul somehow? Scriptures don't want you to worship pagan gods. Where is the worship of a pagan god in eating an egg? For me, I enjoy the good food (and it shows). Now, if like some, you don't like eggs, that's all together a different thing.

JoeT

To the research that I've done the early church allowed this holiday to be celebrated as a tool to draw pagans to Christianity. That is not how you draw people in... Jesus Christ never participated in secular things to draw them...

But the feast was never changed, the name changed. That's all... That just like this secular world has heavy metal... but you have the church that tries to be like the world... now we have christian heavy metal... which is demon inspired music can't be done.

The bible never instructed us to draw the world in by being just like them... God doesn't work like that.

If you don't like eggs how does it make it an all together different thing?

I'll eat an easter egg but I'm not going to combine it with Jesus resurrection as the religions have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet_Guy23

....now we have christian heavy metal....which is demon inspired music can't be done.
.

One point I can differ on.

I don't think heavy metal in itself is demon inspired but it is the furthest from what I would label a Christian sound. I judge music on the song and artist themselves.

Maybe a new post on this would be interesting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

If you don't like eggs how does it make it an all together different thing?

I'll eat an easter egg but I'm not going to combine it with Jesus resurrection as the religions have.

I like scrambled eggs too. There's nothing wrong with eating eggs.

The problem is when you are participating in the Easter festivities (rituals)... actually celebrating the so-called Christian Holiday...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet_Guy23

I like scrambled eggs too. Theres nothing wrong with eating eggs.

The problem is when you are participating in the Easter festivities (rituals)...actually celebrating the so-called Christian Holiday...

Precisely
(have to spread the rep)
Churches themselves will have easter egg hunts and so forth even

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0help4u

One point I can differ on.

I don't think heavy metal in itself is demon inspired but it is the furthest from what I would label a Christian sound. I judge music on the song and artist themself.

Maybe a new post on this would be interesting.

Quick note on that sound... if you remember in the old testament when the king request David services to play for him... the king at that was tormented by a spirit, the bible said that David played his harp... and the king was delivered... now notice these... David never sung... that bible never said that... but the sound David had was anoited and holy... And God moved...

Satan understands how music and sounds work in the spirit realm...

Think about it... in today's music from Gospel to Hip hop... that rock sound and culture is everywhere like I've never seen it before...

But you are right that would be a good question...