[cozyk]

Hello again, NK:

I don't think it's about that. I have huge plasma. I don't drive a huge SUV, but it's only because I choose not to. Look, watching the Mariners in HD on a big screen is GOOD. It's all paid for too. I ain't got no stinkin credit card.

The difference is that I didn't screw anybody to get this stuff. My customers are VERY happy with my services. I don't SCREW them in order to get stuff for me. My employees do pretty well too. I don't SCREW them in order to get stuff for me. MY company works. Big business used to work too, based upon the same principles I use.

But, something changed. And, I don't think seeking a better life for your family is it.

excon

My grandmother was a very simple woman. A statement she often made was "always do what's right," Not very fancy or profound. But, that line plays in my head all the time. Especially when a decision has to be made. It keeps me in check. That is what is missing on a corporate level. It isn't about what is right as much as it is about survival and getting mine.

[cozyk]

Are you guys finnished with your ritual D!*k-beating and masturbational reinforcement thread?

Excon, you are NOT a libertarian, you are NOT a capitalist and you are NOT a believer in the business model. You're not that old either, you just like to act the part... I've met you, remember?

If you believed in the business model, if you were a capitalist, if you were a libertarian, you would not be in favor of government control of healthcare. You COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PROFITABILITY OF INSURANCE COMPANIES AND OIL COMPANIES and forget that profitability is what DRIVES capitalism. There's nothing capitalist OR libertarian about that. A capitalist is in favor of profitability, and a libertarian wants the government to stay out of it.

You are a libertarian on the issues of drugs and guns. But a true libertarian believes that a person is responsible for his own $h!t, and doesn't go to the government for help. You want the government to fix corporate profits because you think their profits are 'unfair'. You want the government to fix healthcare because you think the insurance companies are making too much money. Boo hoo.

A libertarian says "this situation is unfair, I'm going to make my situation better for myself". A liberal says "this situation is unfair, the government needs to step in and fix it for me". You're a proponent of the latter statement. You've said so again and again.

Being a libertarian on guns and the war on drugs doesn't make you a libertarian when the REST of your stances are LIBERAL, not LIBERTARIAN.

I hate to say it, excon, but you DID drink the koolaid. You just can't taste it because all the bile you're busy spewing on corporate America is affecting your tastebuds.

So you don't like the "voicemail jail" that customer service has become. Customer service sucks? Banks are just out to screw their customers? (Do you feel the same about community banks?) Then fine, open a company that acts as an alternative and get rich doing it. THAT is the capitalist response to an issue. Find an alternative that people are willing to pay for, and implement it. But don't just sit there and talk about how companies are screwed up, capitalism is screwed up, and the "system" is screwed up. If you're a capitalist, prove it.

Put on your big-girl panties and deal with it.

Elliot

I'll match your rant with one of my own, and raise you a couple of real life examples. I'm going to cut and past a previous reply of mine.

Every other government that has tried nationalized healthcare has FAILED. In Oregon, where WE tried it, it has failed. In the VA system, where we tried it, it has failed. Medicare and Medicaid are bankrupt. What makes you think that THIS TIME they're gonna get it right?

That is not what the Canadians on this board have been saying. They love it


Quote:

In the American system as it is now, EVERYONE has healthcare, but not everyone has health insurance. Everyone must be given health care under the law, and cannot be turned away for lack of ability to pay.
My friends son has leukemia. Their medical bills are up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Even with their insurance, they are taking a beating from the bills. The saving grace is at least they are not having to empty their 401k, sell their home, sell their cars and other assets. If they did not have insurance, they would end up losing everything they had, they would be destitute and the gov would step in with welfare etc. So, the cost of them NOT having ins. would come right back down to the tax payer.

Now, you say that everyone has health CARE, not just health INSURANCE. Why do I hear about benefits to raise money so little Johnny can have the operation. Or those jars that are always in the convenience stores collecting money for some persons medical care.
I am going to assume that this is just to help cover the huge amount still owed by the patient after the ins. company pays their part.

Anyway, this is the way it goes if someone does Not have INSURANCE but does get the CARE as you say everyone gets.

They go in the hospital, get the care, can't pay, the hospital absorbs the cost, but passes it on to the consumer through higher health care cost.

The next patient comes in, incurs an inflated hospital bill since costs were increased because of the last guy that couldn't pay. So, the hospital absorbs this non paid bill, by increasing health care cost again.


This continues to happen. And with the job losses occurring during this recession more and more people are left without ins. So, now, more health care cost go unpaid and therefore go up. which takes money from the private ins, which causes premiums to go up.. Vicious circle.

A family without insurance will hesitate going to their doctor, IF they go at all. Then we have sick people running around, infecting healthy people, causing more people that can't afford a doctor visit and we are back to that vicious circle. A circle of disaster that could have been avoided with a simple visit and an antibiotic.

Do you see where I am going with this.? YOU and I STILL end up paying since our health care cost are out of control because of a patients inability to pay. And for families that go bankrupt from paying their full amount, we pick up the tab for that on the back end through welfare.

Private insurance companies have a vested interest in DENYING claims. Some of the policies we have had through the years make you jump through hoops of fire to get something approved, go around the world to get a referral, have tight restrictions
on what and how much of a drug you can have. They try every trick in the book to make it more difficult and therefore DISCOURAGE heath care because it eats into their profit. And as we have been shown, their profit is not suffering.

When I was pregnant, my doctor ordered an ultrasound. He wanted it done in his office right away. The fine print on the policy said no. You have to drive over to abc clinic, get it done, and have it sent back to your doctor. My baby was in distress and it was needed right away. I went ahead and paid it out of my pocket to have it done in my doctors office and I'm glad I did or I would not have my son today. A national plan would not involve coordinating Doctor A, that can practice only at Hospital B, and have to have ultrasounds done at clinic C. It would all be under one huge umbrella.

Quote:
In nationalized health systems, everyone has health insurance, but not everyone gets health care. Because everyone is covered, the care has to be rationed, and millions of people fail to receive the treatments they need in a timely manner, because doctors are underpaid, overworked, and lack the materials needed to care for all the patients.
And a private ins. company has to cover everyone that buys a policy so the care has to be rationed and many treatments aren't covered so the profit and loss statement will be heavier on the profit side of the ledger. Their purpose is to use your premium money, invest it to make more money, and come up with ways not to pay your claim. Paying health claims is the last thing they want to do. And, of course when they do have a period of less profit they just raise the premiums. Once again, who is paying for this. YOU and I.


Greed is factored into health care in this country, and therefore the best interest of a patients care is barely even on the radar. Greed for higher profits is effecting the number of people that can even purchase it at all. And you know where that leads us. Back to you, me, and the gov picking up the pieces.

In a perfect world, national coverage would be in effect. The health of a person would be the first priority. Cost of care would come back down to earth. Good health care, yields healthier people yields less health care needed, yields less money spent on health care. It is a win win for all and not just super bonuses for the few. The tax payer would be tapped once up front, and not be involved in picking up the pieces AFTER treatment as in gov assistance or inflated health care cost. Meanwhile super bonus people over at private ins. company are sitting in their 2nd home enjoying their ski vacation.

You are going to pay one way or the other. I say pay up front, have a healthier population, have regulations to keep it all fair and above board, make it easier to obtain that care, cut out all the ifs, ands, buts, and loopholes of a policy, and get the greed of high profits out of the picture.

I am not familiar with all the intricacies of economics or insurance. I do however know what makes logic sense to me. Putting health care decisions into the hands of people that will make more by not covering me is like letting the fox guard the hen house.

One other thing. Since my husband and I started purchasing health coverage 29 years ago, the premiums have sky rocketed while the coverage has decreased. That is yet another problem caused by the lousy method in which health care is handled in this country. It definitely needs an overhaul.
Edit/Delete Message Reply With Quote


I pasted this to point out to you that huge corporate profits don't always trickle down for the benefit of all. They screw the benefit of all and pad the pockets of board members, CEOs, and top management . Then they pile the gold onto those parachutes for a comfy landing. It goes back to downsizing, laying off hard working people while top dogs get their bonuses. How anyone can see this as logical just amazes me.

[cozyk]

Tom, You are right no one is forced to eat there. And people do. But do they really need to sell you a pound of fries? Do they really need to sell a double quarter pounder with cheese? It's been like 15 years since I've been in a McD's so I can't comment on their service. Sure some of the blame is on the people but they have to take responsibility for putting out unhealthy products.

Got to disagree with you there spit. Okay everyone repeat after me.
PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY is key in every aspect of life. There is a lot of crap going down in this country. Plenty of blame to go around that is for sure. Some of this crap we have no control over but what we do have control over, TAKE IT.

Example... Mortgage loans. Just because a lender telsl you that they will lend you a million bucks, it comes down to YOU to determine if that is a good plan for you, your family, and your finances. You don't have to take it, just because it is offered. Think for yourself and be realistic and don't leave it to someone else to do your thinking for you. (OMG, that just made my mind skip over to religion, but that's a whole new thread)

If the chef puts a pound of fries on your plate, you STILL have your own power. Eat half and put sugar on the rest. It's easier that just seeing them sit there and be tempted.

Personal responsibility, now THAT is something that should be taught in schools.

[cozyk]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like to whine about this sort of thing once a while, too. Then I get over it, have a nice glass of wine, turn on my DVR with satellite and watch a recorded movie or something where I can skip commercials on my flat screen TV.

Or I might go to my favorite restaurant which nearly always has excellent service, after withdrawing a few bucks from my wonderful, healthy, privately owned homegrown bank so I can stuff myself to excess if I want.

But tomorrow, it's hop on a jet and fly to San Diego to spend 5 days in a lavish hotel room to celebrate our 25th anniversary...life can still be great! :)

Happy 25th speech! Have fun;)

[amdeist]

I believe that in a society, those things that are necessary to sustain life are a responsibility of the society to its people. My book on Amazon.com "What has capitalism done for you." was written in 2004, and predicted what is happening today in America.

Capitalism is for capitalists, and everyone else suffers. It has reached the final stages where America has losts it values, it morals, its families, and just about everything else worth having in a society.

I graduated college in the 1960's, when companies and employees had shared loyalty. Today there is no loyalty. What has come to pass is that under a profit motive, if two kinds of labor are equally good, employers will choose the less expensive, because it will cut their costs and raise their profits. This is capitalism!

We saw in the last 10 years that the former Kmart CEO received $23 million in compensation during his two-year tenure, but in 2002, after the company declared bankruptcy, 283 stores closed and 22,000 employees lost their jobs without any severance pay. The Tyco CEO made nearly $467 million in compensation during his four-year tenure, yet shareholders lost $92 billion when the scandal broke and Tyco’s market value plunged. CEOs of 23 large companies under investigation by the SEC and other agencies banked $1.4 billion between 1999 and 2001, while the market value of these companies lost $500 billion, and 160,000 employees were laid off. This was just the beginning, and we ignored the signs, just as we ignored the signs of 9-11. This is capitalism!

When asked by a Citizens’ Board what was being done about widespread hunger, numerous food manufacturers refused to acknowledge the hunger as their responsibility, and one responded “If we saw evidence of profitability, we might look into this:” This is capitalism!

A study in 2000 by the World Health Organization (WHO) found: The United States has by far the most expensive health care system in the world, based on health expenditures per capita (per person) and on total expenditures as a percentage of gross domestic product (GDP). Yet, more than 40 million Americans who share in that per capita cost don't have access to health care. This is capitalism!

For those who think that all this is OK, go read the "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire" and get some insight into what is coming. Unlike most Americans, I have helped my three children start buying their own home, and would gladly sacrifice those "standard of living" items like washing machines, Nintendo WIIs, Televisions, etc. to help my family were they to be in need. Most Americans would rather help those impoverished on other continents than to help their own. For those who think that Americans don't need help because we are the land of opportunity, wake up and smell the coffee. Opportunity is rapidly deteriorating.

[inthebox]

Hello:

Something happened. I dunno what.

I'm a libertarian. I'm a capitalist. I'm a small businessman. I'm old. I'm a believer in the business model. Did I say I'm old?

I remember when big business served the needs of its customers. The Wolverine would say would say they still do. But, you can look around in your own life and see that they don't. Customer service is NO service at all. It's voice mail jail, You got that right :o and you know that to be true. I remember when they actually answered their phones and addressed your complaints.. But, something happened. I dunno what.

I remember when the food business supplied us with good food... Then something happened. They found out they could make MORE by inventing crap food, and then selling it to us. No one forces anyone to go eat at what ever franchise you are referring to I remember bankers like Jimmy Stewart who served the needs of his community.. I just discovered online banking... it saves me more in time and the cost of stamps than the pittance of interest on savings But, then something happened. They figured out how sell worthless paper, and enrich themselves at the expense of their customers... I remember health insurance companies that contributed to the welfare of people.... But, then something happened. They turned their interests inward, and started screwing their customers... I remember CEO's who cared about the long term health of their companies. Then something happened. They seem to only be interested in their golden parachutes and their stock options. Yes, corporate america suffered. GM is gone. It's not Bush's fault. It's not Obama's fault. It's the fault of whatever it is that happened to us, and I dunno what it was.

There's more. But, I wanted to point out that it wasn't always this way. It DID work at one time, but something happened and we lost our way. I really don't know what it was. I believed in the power of corporate america to do good, and they DID. But, then they stopped, and I dunno why.

Is it greed? Not enough regulation? Is it too much regulation? Do we not care for each other any more? Did we ever?

excon

I think it is a combo of greed and globilization. Multinationals can use cheap [ child ?] labor that US workers can never compete with and Americans are always wanting a better deal.

Your local small business or locally franchise is still where to get personal and good service, especially in smaller towns. They know the people they serve and the people they serve know them. They more often than not sposor your local kids sports or the community charities. A big multinational co won't care if they lose your business but a local small business will. A big multi national has the resources to lobby governments for advantages and for marketing. I'm not saying they are all bad, I like Walmart, just that the playing field changed.


I think the lack of competition or the inability to compete also is causing what has happened, especially with the Big 3. They owned the market and management did not react to loss of market share due to poor quality products. The UAW became more concerned with what they could get forgetting that they are competing against the world. By the time the Big 3 improved there quality, it was to late, perception became reality and people still think the big 3 make poorly built cars.







G&P

[inthebox]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like to whine about this sort of thing once a while, too. Then I get over it, have a nice glass of wine, turn on my DVR with satellite and watch a recorded movie or something where I can skip commercials on my flat screen TV.

Or I might go to my favorite restaurant which nearly always has excellent service, after withdrawing a few bucks from my wonderful, healthy, privately owned homegrown bank so I can stuff myself to excess if I want.

But tomorrow, it's hop on a jet and fly to San Diego to spend 5 days in a lavish hotel room to celebrate our 25th anniversary...life can still be great! :)

Good for you and your wife, forget money, this is really a measure of how rich you are :)





G&P