Hello:

Something happened. I don't know what.

I'm a libertarian. I'm a capitalist. I'm a small businessman. I'm old. I'm a believer in the business model. Did I say I'm old?

I remember when big business served the needs of its customers. The Wolverine would say would say they still do. But, you can look around in your own life and see that they don't. Customer service is NO service at all. It's voice mail jail, and you know that to be true. I remember when they actually answered their phones and addressed your complaints.. But, something happened. I don't know what.

I remember when the food business supplied us with good food... Then something happened. They found out they could make MORE by inventing crap food, and then selling it to us. I remember bankers like Jimmy Stewart who served the needs of his community.. But, then something happened. They figured out how sell worthless paper, and enrich themselves at the expense of their customers... I remember health insurance companies that contributed to the welfare of people... But, then something happened. They turned their interests inward, and started screwing their customers... I remember CEO's who cared about the long term health of their companies. Then something happened. They seem to only be interested in their golden parachutes and their stock options. Yes, corporate america suffered. GM is gone. It's not Bush's fault. It's not Obama's fault. It's the fault of whatever it is that happened to us, and I don't know what it was.

There's more. But, I wanted to point out that it wasn't always this way. It DID work at one time, but something happened and we lost our way. I really don't know what it was. I believed in the power of corporate america to do good, and they DID. But, then they stopped, and I don't know why.

Is it greed? Not enough regulation? Is it too much regulation? Do we not care for each other any more? Did we ever?

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Is it greed?

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Yes, on the corporation's side. A strong focus on consumerism/materialism on the consumer side. The urge to appear wealthy seems to be the strongest driving force in America. It often makes for poor decision making.

Hello NK

To me greed is like gluttony. It's MORE than you need... But, I distinguish that from self interest. To me, there's a BIG difference...

A greedy CEO will screw his customers and his company as long as HE gets HIS. A CEO with a health self interest, will make sure his customers needs are met because that insures the long term health of his company - which, of course, benefits him for the long run too.

We all have self interest. We all want to make our lives and the lives of our family's the best it can be. That comes from self interest.

Or, maybe we ARE greedy. I don't think it's just corporate america. Whatever happened to them, happened to us first.

excon

Welcome to America!

Do people really need huge SUVs and 60" plasma TVs? Does a corporation CEO of a failing company need a private jet and 3 houses? It's all excess, and it's all about comparing ourselves to the other guy who has more. Those who opt out of that game are happier in my opinion.

Status status status... keeping up with the Jones's.

Who cares. My huges SUV is a little Jeep Liberty... guess what it runs on the same gas!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Do people really need huge SUVs and 60" plasma TVs?

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Hello again, NK:

I don't think it's about that. I have huge plasma. I don't drive a huge SUV, but it's only because I choose not to. Look, watching the Mariners in HD on a big screen is GOOD. It's all paid for too. I ain't got no stinkin credit card.

The difference is that I didn't screw anybody to get this stuff. My customers are VERY happy with my services. I don't SCREW them in order to get stuff for me. My employees do pretty well too. I don't SCREW them in order to get stuff for me. MY company works. Big business used to work too, based upon the same principles I use.

But, something changed. And, I don't think seeking a better life for your family is it.

excon

Are you guys finnished with your ritual D!*k-beating and masturbational reinforcement thread?

Excon, you are NOT a libertarian, you are NOT a capitalist and you are NOT a believer in the business model. You're not that old either, you just like to act the part... I've met you, remember?

If you believed in the business model, if you were a capitalist, if you were a libertarian, you would not be in favor of government control of healthcare. You COMPLAIN ABOUT THE PROFITABILITY OF INSURANCE COMPANIES AND OIL COMPANIES and forget that profitability is what DRIVES capitalism. There's nothing capitalist OR libertarian about that. A capitalist is in favor of profitability, and a libertarian wants the government to stay out of it.

You are a libertarian on the issues of drugs and guns. But a true libertarian believes that a person is responsible for his own $h!t, and doesn't go to the government for help. You want the government to fix corporate profits because you think their profits are 'unfair'. You want the government to fix healthcare because you think the insurance companies are making too much money. Boo hoo.

A libertarian says "this situation is unfair, I'm going to make my situation better for myself". A liberal says "this situation is unfair, the government needs to step in and fix it for me". You're a proponent of the latter statement. You've said so again and again.

Being a libertarian on guns and the war on drugs doesn't make you a libertarian when the REST of your stances are LIBERAL, not LIBERTARIAN.

I hate to say it, excon, but you DID drink the koolaid. You just can't taste it because all the bile you're busy spewing on corporate America is affecting your tastebuds.

So you don't like the "voicemail jail" that customer service has become. Customer service sucks? Banks are just out to screw their customers? (Do you feel the same about community banks?) Then fine, open a company that acts as an alternative and get rich doing it. THAT is the capitalist response to an issue. Find an alternative that people are willing to pay for, and implement it. But don't just sit there and talk about how companies are screwed up, capitalism is screwed up, and the "system" is screwed up. If you're a capitalist, prove it.

Put on your big-girl panties and deal with it.

Elliot

It's greed and making money at all costs. Look at McPoison it isn't bad enough they sell a product that is horrible for you and then try to act like they care about people. But they had to make MORE money so for just .39 cents more you can super size that. Your stomach and their wallets do the same thing get fat and bloated. It is sad really. I don't put all the blame on them because well people love McPoison for some unknown reason.

I actually agree with Wolverine that WE need to do something about it or else the cycle continues.

I changed the bank I patronize when I did not like the service I was getting .

The government madates auto insurance but since I purchase it on my own and I compare services and select the best one... I have changed insurance companies many times.
Every time for reduced costs and better service.
They are always competing for my business . The only thing that prevents them from giving me a better deal is the standards the gvt. Forces them to adhere to.

In fact ;the closer it comes to government mandates ,the less options I have to choose my purchases . Who forces anyone to eat at Mickie D's ? No body. So what is the assumption ;the consumer is too stupid to choose not the eat there ?Or is Mickey D's providing goods and services their customer wants ?

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Originally Posted by ETWolverine

Are you guys finnished with your ritual D!*k-beating and masturbational reinforcement thread?

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Oh my, someone has a gay fetish. LOL!

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Oh my, someone has a gay fetish. LOL!

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Yep. Let's not talk about the substance of my post. Let's make gay jokes instead.

Way to go, Swedish Chef.

Elliot

Tom, You are right no one is forced to eat there. And people do. But do they really need to sell you a pound of fries? Do they really need to sell a double quarter pounder with cheese? It's been like 15 years since I've been in a McD's so I can't comment on their service. Sure some of the blame is on the people but they have to take responsibility for putting out unhealthy products.

The funny thing is I can go to a privately owned diner or any other eating establishment in the country ;order what I want in whatever qty I want ;some of it from the greasiest establishments on the planet ,and no one would go out of their way to think these establishments are acting out of greed by serving my order. I can go to a dirty water hot dog stand outside Yankee stadium and order dogs until my arteries clog and no one would call that vendor greedy. I can get the biggest cheeziest Philadelphia steak hero by another vendor without calling him evil.

Therefore the issue must be the fact that Micky D's has become an internationally successful franchise.

Tom I was just using McD's as an example. Geno's and Pat's have you ever tried to eat a steak "Wit Wiz" (as the say in Philly) it is nasty. Or an all you can eat Chinese Food Buffet how much of the generals chicken do you need to eat. Why is it OK to make people unhealthy in the name of profit?

Spit,
I don't think any restaurant *makes* anyone unhealthy, I mean this is not like the tobacco industry who hides their ingredients. It's all about personal responsibility as a consumer and people now don't seem to care about weight or health, it's low on their priority list.

NK I know you and Tom are both correct (put this one up on the AMHD wall of fame you two agree on something). But lets be honest most people are to stupid for their own good. It just makes me sad when I see some 400lb guy on a rascal scooter cause he is to fat to walk going into the Old Country Buffet. If a bar has to stop serving you if you are visible drunk why not a restaurant if you are to fat for your own good.

*pulls up my manties*
[thats man panties for those not in the know]

Capitalism without a moral backbone is absolutely destructive...

Just the truth...

Why should cows in the EU get subsidies greater than the average third world country worker earns? There is no real free market when there are direct and indirect tariffs... when govt subsidies allows developed countries to sell base products cheaper than third world countries can produce. We talk the talk but we live on smoke and mirrors.

The reality is that both extremes are usually wrong and the middle is mucked up.

Trickle down NEVER, ever trickles down to those most in need.

And govt welfare rarely produces sustainable results, if ever.

Pissed cause the bank has you "talk" to a machine for twenty minutes before you hang up in frustration? Fine. Demand more for yourself. Joe next door might be running the bank, but its not for his community anymore. Leave him if the service isn't good.

I don't want pure capitalism. I want moral capitalism. It's a tricky frickin rope bridge to cross.

Half of my family spends way too much time trying to market and sell free trade coffee from el salvador. You know... to support the "commies" that my beloved reagan tried to squish.

f*&(... it was just a bunch of poor people trying to get land so they could make a living wage... and to this day, the poor screw the poorer in that country. Its awful. My daughter and wife will spend half the month visiting, trying to get a poor landowner to give rightful coffee profits to poorer land workers.

Is my point? I forget...

It's that most of the time there is no one size fits all... that labels of capitalism or liberalism or conservatism or liberalism rarely address any issue in its complexity.

People are F*ed and people F other people. Past that, you need to dig deep morally. Or plan out one helluva scheme.

I believe many have a greater sense of entitlement. They believe that they *deserve* all this stuff.

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Originally Posted by spitvenom

Tom i was just using McD's as an example. Geno's and Pat's have you ever tried to eat a steak "Wit Wiz" (as the say in Philly) it is nasty. Or an all you can eat Chinese Food Buffet how much of the generals chicken do you need to eat. Why is it ok to make people unhealthy in the name of profit?

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Why is it okay to ruin good, profitable businesses because people refuse to take responsibility for themselves? And why is it the government's job to do it? What ever happened to personal responsibility?

Instead of personal responsibility today, we have the "it's not fair" crowd that runs to the government to save them from every little problem.

Here's a hint: according to the US Constitution, the responsibilities of the federal government are to provide protection from enemies both foreign and domestic, regulate the currency and interstate commerce, create roads on which to travel, and create a mail system. They do NOT have the responsibility to feed you, clothe you, shelter you, or give you healthcare. You are not 5 years old. Grow up and deal with it yourself.

Furthremore, any powers not specifically deliniated in the US Constitution are automatically granted to the STATES, not the federal government. Even if it was the job of a government body to make sure you are eating properly (and clean your nose, wipe your butt, give you a bath, change your diaper, and tuck you in at night, most likely) it would not be the FEDERAL government's responsibility.

Just grow up, guys & girls. Stop whinning like a bunch of spoiled babies who need mommy to do everything for them. By the time you are capable of typing on a computer, It's probably time to start learning to dress, feed and take care of yourself without help. My 7 & 8 year old kids take more responsibility for self care than you guys do.

Elliot