[Wondergirl]

Are you referring to people who hold solely to scripture as their standard of truth?

Church members.

you will certainly find differences because there is no guarantee that all these people are saved

We can look into their hearts?

Look for a church whose leadership is submitted to God's word as the sole standard of truth in doctrine, and do not force scripture to bend to their beliefs and theological system, but are willing to have their beliefs bent by the words of scripture.

I belonged to one for years.

[Tj3]

Church members.

You have no guarantee that just because a person is a member of a church that they hold to scripture as the standard of truth, or even that they are saved. So I would not be surprised that there are differences found.

We can look into their hearts?

No, but we can, in some cases get glimpses of what is in a person's heart based upon what they tell us.

[Wondergirl]

You have no guarantee that just because a person is a member of a church that they hold to scripture as the standard of truth, or even that they are saved. So I would not be surprised that there are differences found.

So how do you determine which ten people to test?

No, but we can, in some cases get glimpses of what is in a person's heart based upon what they tell us.

Is a glimpse enough?

And this means they are not saved, if they don't understand the Bible exactly as you do?

[Tj3]

So how do you determine which ten people to test?

I am not sure why I would need to test 10 people anyway. Before anything of the sort were done, you would need to define the objective. I am not clear what your objective would be.

Is a glimpse enough?

Why do I need to know? If a person tells me that they reject the sacrifice on the cross, then I know that they are not saved because that is an essential given in scripture. If they reject Jesus as Saviour, then they are not saved because scripture says so.

If a person says that they believe both of these, there may yet be something in their heart which is unknown to me. That is fine - that is between them and God. Salvation is more than just a verbal agreement to some set of doctrines, but there are some doctrines which are essential for salvation.

And this means they are not saved, if they don't understand the Bible exactly as you do?

Why is it always made personal? It has nothing to do with whether they believe as I do - or you do, or as the Pope does, or anyone else.

[Wondergirl]

I am not sure why I would need to test 10 people anyway. Before anything of the sort were done, you would need to define the objective. I am not clear what your objective would be.

You've forgotten already? Begin with #266.

Why do I need to know?

So belief in the Rapture is not an issue? Or not believing in a 24-hour day at Creation? Or believing the Creation story is a myth? Only "the sacrifice on the cross" and "Jesus as Saviour" are essential?

The "you" was generic.

[Tj3]

You've forgotten already? Begin with #266.

That's not an objective. That is an hypothesis or a matter of speculation, and not a well defined one. If you are trying to say that no ten Bible believing Christians agree on a certain set of doctrines, you would first have to identify what doctrines you are testing, and you would have to establish a scientifically significant sampling program, adequate to establish that the probabilities are sufficient to prove your hypothesis. To say that no ten Bible believing Christians agree would require far more than a sample of ten.

Bottom line - if you are trying to turn this from a random comment into a testable objective, it needs to be much better defined. Defined from the point of view of the question to be answered, what the pass / fail criteria would be and a definition of the methodology.

So belief in the Rapture is not an issue? Or not believing in a 24-hour day at Creation? Or believing the Creation story is a myth? Only "the sacrifice on the cross" and "Jesus as Saviour" are essential?

Again, we would need to define these according to what scripture says.

[Alty]

Again, we would need to define these according to what scripture says.

We? How about you? What does scripture say Tom?

[Wondergirl]

Again, we would need to define these according to what scripture says.

I did my best to give examples of what many consider non-essentials.

Good thing I had stats classes in grad school. Now we need a random sample.

[galveston]

How much creative teaching is being done that misrepresents or causes misunderstanding of what the Scriptures actually say? Were the shepherds and Wise Men at the manger at the same time? I bet 85-90% of Christians believe so (but they weren't). Does a day in Genesis 1 mean a 24-hour period? Some Christian teachers/pastors believe yes, and others no. Are there mistakes in the Bible? Some SS teachers/pastors say yes, others no.

Sit in on several SS classes or adult Bible studies at a Christian church not in your denomination and let me know what you find out.

I agree with what you say here. This only serves to prove or illustrate my point.

Let's use a hypothetical situation. Suppose I argue that Jesus was not virgin born. (I absolutely do believe that He was, but suppose), If you tell me that your church teaches that He was born of a virgin and that your tradition says so, I counter that your tradition is of no value to me. Now if you appeal to Scripture to make your point, and I also believe in Scripture, then we can discuss our differences and let Scripture be the final authority.

It is illuminating that Catholics appeal to tradition that was oral for centuries before it was written down. By that time any witnesses to the supposed events were no longer present.

New Testament Scripture was written soon after the events while most of the eye witnesses were still alive.

But in spite of these difficulties, there are many who still argue that Tradition is as good as Scripture, and some have said in these posts that Tradition may actually be superior.

[Fr_Chuck]

Gotten to arguments and in fighting

Closed

Ok, I will open it for a bit, one more report and complaining, and it closes

[Wondergirl]

Ok, I will open it for a bit, one more report and complaining, and it closes

Thank you!

[Wondergirl]

Help me, Tom. How should we define a Christian, one who is saved? Is his acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice sufficient? What else would he need to do or believe in order to consider him saved? What if he believes that the Creation story is a myth or that Jonah didn't get swallowed by a great fish? To go with the OP's questiion, is Jesus the standard and all else is extra and unessential to salvation?

[Alty]

Is his acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice sufficient?

If it is then I'm saved. You see, I do believe in the sacrifice Jesus made, giving his life for our sins.

Yes, I know, surprising isn't it? ;)

is Jesus the standard and all else is extra and unessential to salvation?

I'll go one step further. What if you don't believe in Jesus, many people don't, but are still religious, still accept God into their lives. So, is Jesus even necessary for salvation? Or is it only Christians that can be saved?

There are so many different faiths, so many different scriptures. So are we only discussing the scriptures in the bible, or are all scriptures up for discussion?

Not trying to start a fight, I truly would like to know what you all think.

[Wondergirl]

I'll go one step further. What if you don't believe in Jesus, many people don't, but are still religious, still accept God into their lives. So, is Jesus even necessary for salvation? Or is it only Christians that can be saved?

There are so many different faiths, so many different scriptures. So are we only discussing the scriptures in the bible, or are all scriptures up for discussion?

Not trying to start a fight, I truly would like to know what you all think.

I work with two wonderful, devoted to their religion and families, Hindu women. They were born into Hinduism and would never consider switching to Christianity any more than I would to Hinduism. Does God have a plan in mind for them? I'd like to think so. Heaven certainly won't be populated just with Christians, will it? Certainly God is big enough?

[Alty]

I work with two wonderful, devoted to their religion and families, Hindu women. They were born into Hinduism and would never consider switching to Christianity any more than I would to Hinduism. Does God have a plan in mind for them? I'd like to think so. Heaven certainly won't be populated just with Christians, will it? Certainly God is big enough?

That's what I believe WG, which is why I have such a problem with the "my way or the highway" people out there.

Who's to say who's right, who's wrong? Only God can decide that, no one else.

A mere human cannot hope to understand what God's will is, or who is saved, who will enter heaven. We can guess, but guessing never works.

I truly believe that in the end, it's what you do with your life that matters. After all, there are many people that are "saved" but would still step over a homeless man on the street and pretend not to see him, or walk away from a man beating his wife or child. Will those people really go to heaven just because they're saved? God isn't blind.

I think that heaven will be a lot like earth, a mix of all religions, all beliefs, all types of people. It will be a huge surprise to some, of that I'm certain. :)

[Wondergirl]

That's what I believe WG, which is why I have such a problem with the "my way or the highway" people out there.

Who's to say who's right, who's wrong? Only God can decide that, no one else.

A mere human cannot hope to understand what God's will is, or who is saved, who will enter heaven. We can guess, but guessing never works.

I truly believe that in the end, it's what you do with your life that matters. After all, there are many people that are "saved" but would still step over a homeless man on the street and pretend not to see him, or walk away from a man beating his wife or child. Will those people really go to heaven just because they're saved? God isn't blind.

I think that heaven will be alot like earth, a mix of all religions, all beliefs, all types of people. It will be a huge surprise to some, of that I'm certain. :)

That reminds me of the story of the Good Samaritan. Do you know it? The religious guys walked past the beaten-up guy on the side of the road, but it was a non-Jew who stopped to help him. And Jesus held him up as a good example.

[Alty]

That reminds me of the story of the Good Samaritan. Do you know it? The religious guys walked past the beaten-up guy on the side of the road, but it was a non-Jew who stopped to help him. And Jesus held him up as a good example.

The story rings a bell and is exactly what I was trying to say.

One thing that make me believe that everyone will be accepted, well, the bible itself says so. Jesus didn't descriminate against anyone. He preached to all, hookers, beggers, thieves, whoever wanted to listen.

So who are we to say, "nope, you don't measure up!" That's God's choice, not ours.

The thieves that were crucified beside him, they had never heard scripture, had never been baptized, they were the worst of the worst. When they asked for forgiveness, Jesus forgave, because he saw what was in their hearts. God can see into our hearts, words don't mean anything. You can claim to believe, spout scripture until you're blue in the face, you may fool a few people, but you can't fool God. When judgement day comes, even if you are the most devout Christian in the eyes of other mortals, God will see the truth.

Easter gets to me, sorry. :(

[Wondergirl]

There used to be a popular bumper sticker -- "I found God." No, it should have been -- "God found me."

[Tj3]

Help me, Tom. How should we define a Christian, one who is saved? Is his acceptance of Jesus Christ's sacrifice sufficient? What else would he need to do or believe in order to consider him saved? What if he believes that the Creation story is a myth or that Jonah didn't get swallowed by a great fish? To go with the OP's questiion, is Jesus the standard and all else is extra and unessential to salvation?

First, you are deviating from what we were discussing. The question was about whether 10 Bible believing Christians would agree on the essentials. You said that no two would agree.

Perhaps before we move on to something else, you copuld provide us with some validation for that claim.

BTW, as for salvation, keep in mind that scripture was quite clear that we must believe in the true gospel and the true Jesus - not just believe in some variant of the gospel and some variant of Jesus.

[Tj3]

If it is then I'm saved. You see, I do believe in the sacrifice Jesus made, giving his life for our sins.

Yes, I know, surprising isn't it? ;)

The devil believes also. The question is whether a person believes in the one true Jesus and the gospel and has received Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

I'll go one step further. What if you don't believe in Jesus, many people don't, but are still religious, still accept God into their lives. So, is Jesus even necessary for salvation? Or is it only Christians that can be saved?

Acts 4:10-12
10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the 'stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.' 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
NKJV

John 14:5-6
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

There are so many different faiths, so many different scriptures. So are we only discussing the scriptures in the bible, or are all scriptures up for discussion?

There is and can be only one truth.