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mitchintulsa · Apr 8, 2009, 04:58 PM

I had to take up a toilet installed around 1938, it used a wall mounted tank just above the bowl. The bowl was not bolted to the concrete floor, but instead the bottom of the bowl was filled with something like plaster, but harder, which held the bowl to the floor, and provided a seal to the 4" lead pipe. There was a flange, didn't use any bolts anywhere. Moving the toilet to another location, and wishing to remount the bowl as before if possible. Any info available as to what material this was, and how it was applied? I was able to break the bowl away from the floor without breaking the bowl, but have not attempted to remove the filler stuck to the bottom of the bowl yet.

mygirlsdad77 · Apr 8, 2009, 05:46 PM

Are there holes in the base of the bowl(where it sits on the floor?) If so, I would suggest using a modern day closet flange with bolts to set the bowl. Use a wax ring. If no bolt holes on base of bowl, I really think you are just out of luck. Time to upgrade toilet. There is no plumber in the world that will tell you to set a toilet without anchoring bolts. However, this is just my opinion. I really hope we can help you make the old toilet work. Lets here from some of the other pros here. Good luck. Take care.

massplumber2008 · Apr 8, 2009, 06:15 PM

Hi all:

Mitch... I'm betting that was plaster... old plaster... ;) I'm also betting that the toilet bowl had 2 or 4 holes for mounting the toilet using bolts, but they didn't get used... yes/no?

Does your toilet look anything like my pictures? See below...

If so, then I'm not sure if fitting this back will be worth your time as these old toilets don't usually reconnect easily... especially if you have the old chrome elbow.

If you do plan to reuse this toilet Then you will definitely want to install new PVC or ABS plastic pipes, a new closet flange and bolts and a wax gasket.

If no holes present... confirm that O.K. May be something I have yet to run into. Also, give our most experienced plumber (speedball) a chance to chime in at early AM.. he may know more on this.

Let us know more...

MARK

mitchintulsa · Apr 8, 2009, 06:46 PM

There are holes, 4 I believe, they were filled up with the plaster like material, the pic. On the right with the 90 degree turn is close to accurate. There will be a new pvc drain installed where the toilet is to be reinstalled, and can bolt it down, wife wanted it the same as org. if possible. I have replaced the guts in the closet, and found a new 90 degree turn pipe between the closet and the bowl, to install when I move it. I need to get some rubber gromets to go into the closet, to protect the closet from damage from the brass screws going into the wall. I would rather just go buy a new toilet than try to use this one, but I have a few of these, and extra parts on hand to keep everything in working order for the years to come, so I will try to use what I have. I guess the plaster also acted as a seal because there was nothing under the bowl but the plaster like material.
Thanks for all the help
Mitch

massplumber2008 · Apr 8, 2009, 07:11 PM

Hey Mitch... that old plaster like stuff could also be thinset mortar which can harden quite hard so be careful chipping it off the old toilet if you want to reuse... ;) I'd bet that's what it is... explains how it could hold the toilet so strongly to the floor.

Anyway, sounds like you're on track here. Most important with this type toilet will be to be careful of the spud assemblies (connects elbow to toilet and elbow to tank). If these loosen you will need to replace them so don't overtighten the chrome nuts. They are available at all plumbing supply stores.

The 4 holes are old fashioned for sure. You will be using the 2 holes that are closest to the wall... the others can just have toilet caps caulked in place to cover the holes. You will most likely want to install this as a 14" rough. That is, that you will most likely want to install the new closet flange so its center point is 14" from the new finished wall. That should work nicely with a new chrome elbow. It would be nice if you could measure the center of the old pipe/flange to the old finished wall... you will want to repeat this (usually).

Glad to discuss all you want...

MARK

speedball1 · Apr 9, 2009, 05:23 AM

Let me put this to rest. I was around back then. On older houses back in Wisconsin we had a lead closet bend the ended in a flare on the floor, ( no flange). We used a rope of plumbers putty, (not plaster) for a seal and secured the toilet to the floor with wood screw closet bolts. Over the years the putty hardened up. We never used plaster, mortar nor anything but putty for a toilet seal. Hope this clears things up. Tom

mygirlsdad77 · Apr 9, 2009, 03:20 PM

Just to confirm, I would still suggest going with the new pvc closet flange and a wax ring with closet bolts. Tom gave you first hand experience, but I'm sure he would agree that today he would use the newer methods. He has seem more than most of us will in a lifetime, therefore he knows not only the old school ways, but the currents ways.

Thanks for the input Tom, if I ever run across this, I will be able to know that it was common practice at one time, instead of thinking,, what the hell. Lol.

speedball1 · Apr 9, 2009, 04:14 PM

Of course a wax seal and a closet flange's superior to a lead closet bend and plumbers putty. I was attempting to clear up the nortar,thin-set, plaster controversy. Have a good one. Tom

massplumber2008 · Apr 9, 2009, 04:50 PM

Tom... putty can't hold a toilet tight to the ground as you mentioned, "We used a rope of plumbers putty, (not plaster) for a seal and secured the toilet to the floor with wood screw closet bolts"...

Mitch said, "The bowl was not bolted to the concrete floor, but instead the bottom of the bowl was filled with something like plaster, but harder, which held the bowl to the floor, and provided a seal to the 4" lead pipe"...

Putty couldn't hold a toilet down that long... I know as I have been ripping out all the toilets you installed since I started in the trades... :p

I have seen putty and plaster used to set bowls (level some, too), but only ones I saw that were stuck so hard they didn't need bolts were the ones set into tile using thinset..

Let me know what you think...

MARK

mygirlsdad77 · Apr 9, 2009, 05:00 PM

I think you are correct Mark. The asker said that his bowl base was completely full of whatever substance was used. And putty just doesn't hold a fixture in place. The fact is, it doesn't really matter what was used for his toilet install back then, all that matters now is that we let him know how to do this correctly in this day and age.

speedball1 · Apr 10, 2009, 06:17 AM

Back then, Mark, The area I grew up in set their toilets as I described. Hey! I don't know what this Dude had under his bowl. If he has no closet bolts of any kind it could very will be that some jackleg plumber glued it down. Never saw it done before and when closet bolts are so cheap I can't understand why it was done now. Anyhow, you're probably correct. I was simply passing on how it was done in my area as my dad brought me into the trade. Ya'all have a good one. Tom