[Akoue]

It had everything to do with asking a saint in heaven.

How could that be, since Christ hadn't yet come and conquered death, bringing salvation to the saints? I've never before heard anyone say that he was in heaven when Saul sought to summon him.

And that's the point you seem to be missing. Christ conquered death, promising and--we believe--granting eternal life to his saints. You want to insist that the operative notion is "death in the flesh". But this rather dramatically misses the point of Christ's promise, and gift, of eternal life. In fact, it not only misses the point; it evacuates it of meaning. You are clinging to a pre-Christian way of thinking about death.

[Akoue]

Good - well don't go committing any acts that He calls abominations

Are we to infer from your admonition that you do not trim your fore-locks? You are, then, careful not to sit in a chair in which a menstruating woman has sat? These too are abominations according to the Law.

[Tj3]

How could that be, since Christ hadn't yet come and conquered death, bringing salvation to the saints?

Interesting. I have never heard anyone in mainstream Christianity suggest that it was impossible to be saved before Jesus came in the flesh.

I've never before heard anyone say that he was in heaven when Saul sought to summon him.

Samuel was saved and was a saint - are you saying that their actual location matters? Are you saying that it would be an abomination to communicate with a sdaint who was not in heaven, but a good thing to talk to a sint in heaven? Exactly where do you get this rather unusual belief?

[Tj3]

Are we to infer from your admonition that you do not trim your fore-locks? You are, then, careful not to sit in a chair in which a menstruating woman has sat? These too are abominations according to the Law.

Are we to assume that you are unable to discuyss a issue without mis-representing others? THis was addressed a number of times, but you seem to go back to iut anyttime that you cannot deal with the facts at hand.

[Akoue]

Interesting. I have never heard anyone in mainstream Christianity suggest that it was impossible to be saved before Jesus came in the flesh.

So you believe that there is salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross? Odd. I am genuinely surprised to find you suggesting that Christ's sacrifice and conquest of death is inessential for salvation.

Samuel was saved and was a saint - are you saying that their actual location matters? Are you saying that it would be an abomination to communicate with a sdaint who was not in heaven, but a good thing to talk to a sint in heaven? Exactly where do you get this rather unusual belief?

I have made no claims about this. Again, I am surprised to find you claiming that there is salvation apart from Christ's death and resurrection. Your beliefs appear to be evolving in unexpected ways. It will be interesting to see where this takes you. I hope you'll let us know where you end up.

[Akoue]

Are we to assume that you are unable to discuyss a issue without mis-representing others? THis was addressed a number of times, but you seem to go back to iut anyttime that you cannot deal with the facts at hand.

You never answered me about this. You have admonished Wondergirl to refrain from those things said by the Law to be abominations. I am attempting to be charitable by assuming that you are not a hypocrite, and this means that you yourself refrain from those things said by the Law to be abominations. Trimming forelocks and sharing a chair with a menstruating woman are said by the Law to be abominations. Therefore, these must be activities from which you refrain. I was simply seeking your confirmation of that.

[classyT]

Well, you hope that the Lord has not departed from you.

This is way off thread but I will sneak this one in TJ3 because I am curious as to what you think... so do you believe that the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer ( a REAL believer) can depart? Obviously the Holy Spirit CAME ON the old test. Saints... but what about the Christian? And fyi, the story of Saul is the very one I would use for why we are NOT to pray to the deceased. Interesting to me that some can pass it off as a fluke or as not the same thing... but they can't site ONE example where it was done and the Lord approved it.

[Tj3]

So you believe that there is salvation apart from Christ's sacrifice on the cross?

I have been very clear about my beliefs in this regard. There is no salvation aside from the cross, and ALL who were saved before or after the cross were saved because of the sacrifice on the cross.

Unlike you, I have never made any statement even suggesting that those before the cross lived before their was salvation.

[Tj3]

This is way off thread but I will sneak this one in TJ3 because I am curious as to what you think... so do you believe that the Holy Spirit that indwells the believer ( a REAL believer) can depart? Obviously the Holy Spirit CAME ON the old test. Saints... but what about the Christian?

We find differences between the way that the Holy Spirit deal with believers before the ascension of Christ, and afterward. Before Christ, the Holy Spirit would come upon a believer, but did not indwell believers. In the NT, we find the fulfillment of the OT prophecy when Jesus announced that the Holy Spirit would indwell believers. So, no the Holy Spirit does not depart from believers.

And fyi, the story of Saul is the very one I would use for why we are NOT to pray to the deceased. Interesting to me that some can pass it off as a fluke or as not the same thing... but they can't site ONE example where it was done and the Lord approved it.

Exactly.

[classyT]

Tj3,

Thanks, I thought we were on the same page... and we are.

[Wondergirl]

I have never made any statement even suggesting that those before the cross lived before their was salvation.

Huh? But they did live before there was salvation.

[Tj3]

Huh? but they did live before there was salvation.

Can you justify from the Bible, your belief that there was a time before salvation? That is acertainly not an orthodox Christian belief.

[Wondergirl]

Can you justify from the Bible, your belief that there was a time before salvation? That is acertainly not an orthodox Christian belief.

The OT was a time before Christ and salvation.

[Tj3]

The OT was a time before Christ and salvation.

There was a time before Christ came manifest in the flesh.

Where in the Bible do we find a time before salvation? Are you saying that everything who died before 30AD went to hell without a hope?

[Wondergirl]

There was a time before Christ came manifest in the flesh.

Where in the Bible do we find a time before salvation? Are you saying that everything who died before 30AD went to hell without a hope?

If they obeyed the Law perfectly they didn't.

[Tj3]

If they obeyed the Law perfectly they didn't.

Romans 3:23 says that no one obeyed the law perfectly, so are you saying that they all went to hell without any hope?

[Wondergirl]

Romans 3:23 says that no one obeyed the law perfectly, so are you saying that they all went to hell without any hope?

It was said to the Children of Israel --
Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee. [Deut. 6:17]

And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them: [Deut. 17:19]

But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Josh. 22:5]

Be ye therefore very courageous to keep and to do all that is written in the book of the law of Moses, that ye turn not aside therefrom to the right hand or to the left; [Josh. 23:6]

And keep the charge of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and his testimonies, as it is written in the law of Moses, that thou mayest prosper in all that thou doest, and whithersoever thou turnest thyself: [1 Kings 2:3]

[Wondergirl]

Israel did not consider any of God's laws unreasonable or believe they were impossible to keep. If a person violated a law, there was a sacrifice available within the law to atone for the sin, and thus he was keeping the overall law.

[Tj3]

Israel did not consider any of God's laws unreasonable or believe they were impossible to keep. If a person violated a law, there was a sacrifice available within the law to atone for the sin, and thus he was keeping the overall law.

Romans 3:23 is clear. NO ONE EVER kept the law.

Those sacrifices never took away any sin:

Heb 10:3-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

They were prophetic of the ONLY sacrifice that could take away sins.

[Wondergirl]

Romans 3:23 is clear. NO ONE EVER kept the law.

Those sacrifices never took away any sin:

Heb 10:3-7
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

"Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come--
In the volume of the book it is written of Me--
To do Your will, O God.' "
NKJV

They were prophetic of the ONLY sacrifice that could take away sins.

That's all in the NT. What did the OT people believe? They sinned and made sacrifices in good faith.