[wallabee4]

OK. Brief history on me: Grew up in home where brother beat me and Mom. I was stupid enough and desperate enough to get out of that by dating a guy who also abused me--but at least he got me out of the home where I was abused, huh? I was strong enough--after 11 years--to dump him and 'move on' buit then got tangled in a string of abusive relationships. (I know, you've heard it all before... funny thing is, each time I thought I left a relationship strong enough not to do THAT again but lately in looking back I now realize they were all the same relationship, huh?. ) But I did manage to take 2 years off the abusive bums and thought I'd changed my own life enormously in the direction I wanted to go--not where some dumb guy wanted me to go. And then I found my husband. Who was respectful, loving, and all around great. Trouble is... about 5 years into our marriage he suffered a devastating loss of a close friend. He had trouble coming to terms with it and he stareted getting violent with objects thrown and broken, walls kicked, and verbally abusive to me and the kids and then phsically abusive to the pets. I kept talking to him, keeping communication open and I kept asking him what was giving him permission to cross the lines in how he was beahaving. He always had some justification for his anger mgmt problem. It lasted probably 6 years. During which he never once the kids physically but did break my trust enormously by swearing in front of the kids, by throwing things and breaking things that were important to me. I'd started feeling sorry for him and wanting to console him to help his anger go away but it ended up that he called me a B***h and was angry at me. It wasn't until the past 2 years that he started FINALLY realizing how his bad handling of his own grief and anger had started with the loss of his friend and then turned anger towards God and then just became a habit to use on all of us for anything that ticked him off. And so he actually has started a pretty good life change to apologize to the kids, to FINALLY admit that he sees that his actions were not justified, and I can see he feels quite guilty for what he put them through--especially since he can see some inappropriate anger handling in our son at times. My hurt comes from several sources--that I couldn't choose my own family who hurt me, I was young (16) when I was stupid enough to choose the abusive boyfriend #1, and probably never matured much past 16 when I later chose the other abusive guys, too. But by the time I met my husband, I'd grown up a lot and knew what I was looking for and what I didn't want. And I chose him. And he WAS a great person. And he betrayed that trust I had in him being a good person--my rock--I had finally chosen well on. And once he broke his own treasured item and I had an identical item and I loved him and I felt sorry that in his grief/anger he'd broken his, so I gave him mine and then a month later I discovered mine broken as well. I hadn't witnessed the scene in which it had been smashed, but he'd smashed it and left the pieces for me to find. Both really ignorant betrayals, in my viewpoint. I also realized I was starting to throw myself under the bus more and more in protection of our kids. I'd take his verbal abuse outside to spare the kids the language. I'd even have sex with him believing that if he had some steam valve to let off it'd temper his anger the next day with the pets and kids. I realized only a couple years ago that I allowed him to hurt me physically during sex--not like he hauled off and hit me or anything, just that a turn or a twist or a thrust was painful for me and I never spoke up-- and I didn't speak up (whereas in our early relationship I had--if a position caused me pain I'd say stop. Now I was mute and inside myself--pretty much back to my own old protective habit when I'd dated abusive boyfriend #1. And I was in effect lying to my husband and I hated myself for it so I started to avoid him to avoid the situation) For a long time I kept thinking I was just traumatized/hurt/angry at old boyfreind #1, but then I came to realize that I had actually allowed my husband to abuse me, too, and I'd never admitted it to myself and he himself never thought he was being abusive--and to tell the truth, I think if I HAD spoken up and said STOP husband would have stopped, it's just that in the moment I'd lost all trust that he would and I demeaned myself by not considering myself important enough to stand up for myself--back in old habits of my own--starting to view him/treat him like my old abusive relationship. So I can see I have a part in what's gone down between us. And when I told him, he was very hurt I had lied to him and he told me he didn't want to hurt me. And that seemed genuine except that while telling me that he was still otherwise being abusive/angry in yelling all time at the kids and obviously steaming and waiting to explode whenever he wasn't actually yelling. It seemed to me that he has little control except maybe just sheer willpower that only held out for so long. I don't yet trust he's changed I think he's faking it either to me or to himself as well.

But now I sit here and he has just today made an apology to me, this is actually his first apology in 8 years directed to me--he's previously aplogized to the kids, to the pets, but not directly to me. And I guess I'd feel good about it except that I had to point out to him that he had never apologized directly to ME. (Having to ask for an apology kind of makes it hollow, wouldn't you say?) And he told me it was very difficult because he feels so guilty and he felt as if I wasn't going to be receptive. And I wasn't. He made what I considered a half-arsed apology "I'm sorry for what I've done" and I insisted he had to be more specific--I told him maybe he would see me as an unreceptive b***h but that was the risk I felt I had to take because I felt that he needed some tough love to hold him accountable for his actions, not let him skate by without taking a good hard look at what's he'd done to us all. I know he just wanted me to be receptive and forgiving and to comfort him in his time of need--but where had he been in my time of need? During all his anger mgmt problems I'd given birth to 2 babies, suffered loss of both my parents, my grandmother, 3 pets (not by his hand, by the way) and I'd undergone 2 major surgeries and went into and out of a very deep debillitating depression. He was nowhere in all of that for me. I needed to see that he'd taken the time to reflect on his behaviors and pull out exactly what harm he'd done to us all. He first told me he'd need to think on that and that made me angry. I unloaded a bunch of stored up crap onto him--pointing out several instances that were particularly abusive and wrong and that I could see their daily affect on the kids and on me and even our dog who shies away from him. I reminded him that if you beat a dog it shies away from you. And he yells that how long does it take for the dog not to shy away anymore if he's not beating it anymore? And I said you have to always never beat the dog because the first time you beat the dog again you are starting back at square one again. All the not-beating progress doesn't count. It's like you can't be a little bit pregnant. And yet all the while I realize that I've always taught my kids and I believe myself that we are all human we all make mistakes and it's what you do after the mistake that counts. If you keep doing it and don't apologize and don't feel bad or if you stop doing it, feel bad, and apologize. But... trouble is although he's more or less stopped doing it, the kids and I cringe at the first raising of his voice, I find myself constantly wanting to be sure that the kids or my or the pets' mistakes don't make him angry. I HATE doing THAT. HATE myself for THAT BAD HABIT. It's not my job to make life sweet for him so he doesn't get angry. He needs to handle his anger. He is so impatient with the kids even on little things. (And they are still little kids!) I simply don't know where I go from here. I haven't let him touch me in 2 years. I can't let myself be vulnerable to him. I don't trust myself to protect myself properly.

And yet I guess what I know is that the abusive relationships I left the guys were abusive for no reason I know of other than I was a great victim and they were power wielding creeps. I left those relationships to resolve them. I don't want to leave this relationship as a matter of commitment and the kids and all that stuff. And I can see that in the beginning there was a source ('reason,' if you will) for his anger/abuse. And the abusive habit was a mistake for which there was no excuse and he now finally recognizes that and is trying to stop the bad habit and change. (I suppose it's possible that my brother and boyfriends also had some original cause for their abusiveness but it began long before me and I wasn't sticking around for them to resolve it) My husband was once worth sticking around for. But I don't know how I can turn back the clock and feel as safe and loved as I once did with him. I've told him it doesn't feel like he cherishes me and the kids much. More like we've been invisible. More like he's been selfish insead of selfless in his love for wife and small kids. I yearn to see more thoughtfulness, more consideration for where the kids and I are coming from, more patience, more effort and creativity in resolving problems insetad of festering them not communicating, or avoiding addressing them. More good examples set for the kids. [Yet I also question is that possible for a MAN to do? Or am I from Venus and shouldn't expect any of this from him since he's a male? ] And yet he keeps telling me he needs the chicken before the egg. He wants affection coming from me so that he can feel it's worth it to do the right things. I say bull. I honestly do not feel I am doing this to 'punish' him. I am doing it as a self-protection thing, trying to make a wisely guarded choice for the kids and myself. I cannot let my guard down and feel close to him, make myself vulnerable until I see some real and lasting changes. I think he's apologizing with the motivation of getting what he wants--affection from me--not apologizing with the motivation being a heartfelt guilt or shame or desire to do better.

How do I know what to do?

[I wish]

There is so much work that both of you need to do, but you're going to have to take this 1 step at the time. First of all, I strongly recommend marriage counselling for both of you.

You personnally need to go to therapy/counselling because you had too many traumatizing experiences.

Your husband needs anger management and possibily therapy if he still suffers from his friend's death.

This is going to be a slow healing process. It's going to take a lot of time and patience, but you can do it!

[I wish]

Trusting yourself? This is really tough. You've had a really tough childhood, so it's very easy for you to feel insecure. I feel bad for you. I really wish that you can find a kind man who can help, instead of you helping him. I'm not entirely sure what kind of advice to give you, but I can share a past experience with you.

My ex girlfriend also has a very abusive father, so I learnt a lot from her. I'm actually the exact oppostive her dad. I come from a very caring family. As weird as this sounds, I had a lot of trouble understanding what abuse was. As we got closer, she explained it to me and I didn't really know how to help her. But she did tell me how I could help her. She told me that I should just listen to her and be there for her. So that's what I did. Our fights were very civilized. All our fights were on the phone and when we saw each other in person, it was really happy. Neither of us like loud voices, so we never raised our voices and definitely never physically abusive towards each other (lol kind of hard on the phone). We had an excellent communication system, which is what you lack with your husband.

Here's the down side to the story, which might apply more to you. We broke up because we come from different worlds and it all caught up to us. I was more than willing to listen to her problems and give her whatever advice she needed. She even went to a therapist. But her problems came between us. I felt like I couldn't help her solve her problems, all I did was listen and she wouldn't really take my advice. While she was having all these problems, I had to keep all my problems to myself and I couldn't turn to her. If she can't help herself, then how can she help me?

So... the moral of the story is, you need to be apart from him. You really need to be single and learn to be independent. Get whatever help you need. Lean on friends. There must be family members that you are close with? Cousins? Siblings? Anyone who can help you get through this. But the most important is that you have to believe in yourself. Don't be scared to make mistakes, because you will learn from your mistakes and do better next time.

I hope this helps. I didn't want to write a novel, but let me know if you want more help!

[chuff]

More good examples set for the kids. [Yet I also question is that possible for a MAN to do? Or am I from Venus and shouldn't expect any of this from him since he's a male??]

This statement is both offensive and deep at the same time.

It offends me because you are not married to a man. You are married to a boy. Much like you clung abusive guys, he clings to abusing things and worse dogs to avoid dealing with the real issue. I'll be honest with you, if I saw someone abusing a dog, your husband included I'd beat his sorry a$$ until the cops showed up. But you see that's the difference between me and your boy. I don't go around picking fights with defenseless people or animals. I get mad, PO'ed and lose my mind sometimes but if I see a alligator I'm not going to start beating on it. Because I'm man enough to admit, I'm going to lose that battle. If you boy is so tough why doesn't he start beating on someone that can defend themselves. Because he knows what will happen. The point I'm trying to make is he can be self aware of what he's doing, even if he's mad at the family or God, but

In there, lies the deepness of the issue he has. His emotions are completely out of control, and he has never matured enough to learn how to deal with them and sort them out so that the pain is there but in a manageable way with an outlet for the aggression that isn't an object.

Personally, when I get PO'd I just get up and walk away. It can be a minute or two hours but I remove myself from the situation. Beyond that, he needs exercise because that has been proven to release stress. Beyond that, I'd tell him what you told us, that you want to trust him, but he needs to earn that trust, you believe he can do it, but your trust is to be earned and you believe in him enough to give him that opportunity. Now it's up to him to show you through his actions over time that he has changed. A start might be voluntering at an animal shelter for abused animals.

[liz28]

You need counseling for yourself and big self-esteem boost. You go from worst, to bad, to worster.

And you don't only have to look after yourself but your kids as well. You stick around and deal with the abuse because your use to it but you need to break yourself free from this cycle now.

You can Google free counselor in your area or contact your local mental health department in your area(if your in the us) because most of them offer free counseling. Along with counseling you might want to consider a support group(google it as well).

Ultimately you need to leave this guy and if you have no where to go, they have DV shelters and that would be a plus because they have counseling and support groups. You can call 1-800-799-safe.

It time for you to save yourself and kids.

[Fr_Chuck]

Leave, you can always forgive him and wish him good luck with the next person.

In addition check with the local United Way for various assistance programs and with your local place of worship

[wallabee4]

I was researching 'trust' and came across this (I've edited it some from original context) and knew it immediately appiled to me: "The assumption that [another] is conscious of his or her needs and will part with them if artfully asked the right questions is a flawed assumption. [Everyone is not] fully conscious of their needs, aren’t necessarily disposed to reveal them, and direct rational inquiry is not the best route to either raised consciousness or enhanced revelation." I think I tend to be impatient not just with my husband but with any adult who doesn't 'get it' when they've scrrewed up or when a situiation is screwed up and needs them to take repsonsibilty to fix things in a logical way. I hold others very very repsonsible because I hold myself very very repsonbsible. And I guess what I see in my husband is someone who no matter how many times his wife says this is wrong and lays out the 'facts' he can't see it my way and I keep thinking how do you NOT see it? (And I miss the pont that he needs to see it his way not necessarily my way) And he comes to it in his own time. In counseling he wants a counselor to tell him what's wrong and what to do. And as Chuff said that's because he hasn't matured enough to do it himself. Do his homework. (My fault? His Mom's fault before me? I don't know, but he's 40's so he ought to by now realize it's his fault too if he lets his need to take the easy way out override his learning from life and formulating his own plans in a timely fashion) I have a problem myself with only listening to hear my pre-conceived ideas or even to hear the answer I'm looking for I can see that I am very unreceptive to him being able to admit his uncertainties, and discuss, engage in and evolve his views

And... to me I think that because I have actually been in counseling twice in my life (once in a tangential relation to this when the abuse of my #1 boyfriend reared it's ugly head a PTSD episode. My husband attended to find out what the heck was going on with me) and because I'm basically cheap and wanted to get my money's worth while I was in it, I worked very hard to do my homework and as such tend to overanalyze myself--always looking for cause and effects or looking for what I 'get' out of a particular situation that is causing me to be in it (good or bad). I would say I am usually the first to take responsibility for my many errors and I am nearly always conscious to see how what I've done or not done affects my kids or those around me. And what I find most frustrating is my husband is nearly the opposite. He'd do anything to avoid a situation than do the hard hard work to figure out what's causing it and make a plan of attack to resolve it. That's true in almost everything in our relationship whether it be finding the $ to pay a bill or deciding how to paint the house. I would like to thank CHUFF especially for his male insight and what I would call right-on-ness. My husband does need to grow up. He has never been repsonsible for paying is own bills--first his Mom did it when he was in the military then I did it when we got married. And although we are 100% responsible w/ credit and have no debt, none of that is really his doing.
He also doesn't have a specific plan of attack in dealing with the kids. If I get up and every morning my son has trouble getting out of bed on time for school, I sit and ask myself--why? And I make a conscious effort to get him to bed earlier. If that doesn't fix it, I try to empathize with the fact that it's dark when we get up right now so I turn on all the house lights to make it seem brighter when he rises. And if he's still a grump, I find something silly to do in the morning to show him how to redirect his grumpy into silly like bring the cat into his bed and say she's the wake-up kitty come to make him get out of bed (he's only 6). I find a resolution in hopes of teaching my son other options than grumpy.

... but am I causing everyone around me to be dependent on me to fix things? Because that's what I do NOT want. I wish/want everyone to be as responsibility taking as I am--especially husband--so what is my plan of attack here? I can't fix husband. Only me... How am I ultimately causing my own situation? Insights anyone?

By the way: odd thing I find frustrating (and yet it also helps me feel like I don't yet need to take liz28's advice and leave because kids and I am 75% of thr time not with him now anyway) is that husband works away from home 75% of the time. So I'd think that even if I am influencing him I'm certainly not there to do it when he's gone from home months at a time and so I grow increasingly impatient when he is home that he hasn't worked it out on his own and come to tell me his insights/his plans. Is he just that boy so immature to never do it? Is it that if he has a whisp of a plan it's not 'good enough' for me so I'm causing him to give up yet again? Gosh! I just want him to man up and take charge of his own life. My life is befuddled enough with my own problems!

[talaniman]

Two sick people cannot heal themselves, and you do need to get away from each other to help yourselves.

Take Liz's, and Fr. Chuck's very good advice, and get your own house in order, now rather than later.

[kirriky]

The fact that he doesn't hit the kids doesn't mean he isn't abusing or traumatising them physchologically. Living in a house where the father goes around yelling at his wife, smashing things and kicking the dog is doing them no good at all. I mention this because some people set the limit at "physically abusing the kids" but this is just as bad. (I was a kid in such situation, my stepdad never hit me but the atmosphere was very bad. I was incredibly happy when we left). Kicking the dog is just as bad.. who was it that said "Someone who loves animals can't be a bad person"? Well, in your case it's the other way round...

I realise separating and moving out is difficult and expensive... but after all these years, I don't think how it can be easily fixed. He might have been a good guy years ago, but he's not the same person anymore.

You both need help, but separately. He needs to learn anger management and you need to heal after all those abusive partners, learn to stand up for yourself - and your kids.