[De Maria]

Where does Scripture say it is the standard?

And, of what is Scripture the standard?

And if Scripture is the standard, shouldn't we be able to find that statement in Scripture?

[JoeT777]

Excellent!

JoeT

[JoeT777]

We know that God and Truth are convertible; St. Thomas says, “Whence it follows not only that truth is in Him, but that He is truth itself, and the sovereign and first truth. “ Summa Prima Q, 15 a5” Consequently we can say that there is an absolute infallible truth. If we hold that Truth is absolute then there can be only ONE absolute TRUTH.

Consequently, we cannot simply hold what ‘feels’ good, or what supports our life style, as truth. There can be no commonality in the various Christian faiths; in any two competing faiths, one must be is True and the other must be false or they both must be wrong. The reason should be obvious; truth resides in God, and what resides in God has definitive meaning. Since the Holy Scriptures are inspired by God then for each individual there can be only One Truth, One Word. It’s an obscenity to believe Scripture can have ‘different meaning for different folks’. The Holy Spirit inspires men to One True faith.

O soul pressed down by the corruptible body, and weighed down by earthly thoughts, many and various; behold and see, if thou canst, that God is truth. For it is written that "God is light;" not in such way as these eyes see, but in such way as the heart sees, when it is said, He is truth [reality]. St. Augustine, On the Trinity, 8,2

Therefore, to have a ‘Standard’ of competing faiths with which to measure the same Truth, the same Revelation, is self-contradictory.

JoeT

[De Maria]

Hi Joe,

While we're waiting for a response, it seems to me that the Scriptures say that the Church is the standard. Note the following verses:

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Ephesians 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

And this is consistent with how God works. In the Old Testament, God gave a set of laws:

Exodus 24:12
And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written;...

And at the same time appointed a teacher. Note how the verse ends.

...that thou mayest teach them.

And this teacher had actually been appointed leader of the people of God long before:
Exodus 19:9
And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

And Moses recognized his authority before God's people:
Exodus 18:14
And when Moses' father in law saw all that he did to the people, he said, What is this thing that thou doest to the people? Why sittest thou thyself alone, and all the people stand by thee from morning unto even?

Listen to Moses' reply:
15And Moses said unto his father in law, Because the people come unto me to enquire of God:

Obviously then, Moses' recognized that he was the purveyor of God's word.

And Jesus' recognized Moses' authority. Did you notice that Moses' SITTEST before the people?

Matthew 23:2Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Since the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat, Jesus said that they should be obeyed. Even He obeyed them to the death:
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

For the High Priest had said:
John 11:49-51 (King James Version)

49And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 50Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 51And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

Therefore Jesus recognized the authority of man.

And Jesus has now established His standard:

Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Note the last words:
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

This is an infallible standard. And simultaneously led by an infallible leader who was given the keys to the Kingdom:
Matthew 16:19
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

But Jesus left us another standard. Traditions. And they were several.

The Tradition of Magisterium. That is, of teaching:
Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The Tradition of the Mass:
Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Tradition of Baptism:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And several more.

Soooo, it seems that there are several standards, of which Scripture is just one.

That is why Scripture says:
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

[JoeT777]

De Maria:

I would suggest that the Church is the corporate Teaching Authority, a guide, the Sheppard; correcting, disciplining or reasoning of Scripture in conformity with Truth through Gospels and the teachings of the Apostles. We can't forget that the Gospels serve two functions; a witness God's Truth, and the establishment of a catholic (universal) theology. Both teach that Christ's mission shouldn't be misconstrued, “Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. To fulfil For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. (Matt 5:17) Christ didn't come to destroy God's Kingdom, rather to fulfill the prophecies, God's promises. Consequently the promise made to Moses is not abandoned but rather renewed in the heart; “you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” Exodus 19:5-6. Abandoning our claim to this inherited promise is to abandon Christ's promises to conquer death through His sacrifice.

JoeT

[RickJ]

Sola Scriptura is the idea that the Bible is sufficient of itself to be the only source of Christian doctrine.

If we believe in this doctrine, then we should find it in the Bible, right?

In fact, we do not.

The scripture passage so often cited by proponents of Sola Scriptura is 2 Timothy 3: 15-17, however you shall see that Paul teaches nothing of the sort:

2 Timothy 3: 15-17:
"...from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Here there is not even the slightest implication that Scripture is the sole source of doctrine. Indeed, it affirms the value of Scripture - and that it is from God (which Catholics are taught), however nothing implies that it is all we need. To say that Scripture is "useful" is one thing, but to say it is the only writing that ought to be followed is another altogether.

Not only is the idea of Sola Scriptura not found in Scripture, itself, the New Testament, in fact, teaches against it:

2 Thessalonians 2:15
" So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

1 Corinthians 11:2
"I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you."

2 Timothy 1:13-14
"What you heard from me, keep as the pattern of sound teaching, with faith and love in Christ Jesus.Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us."

2 Timothy 2:1-2
"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable men who will also be qualified to teach others."

The Bible is indeed the Word of God and without error, but neither Christ nor the Bible teach such an idea as Sola Scriptura.

[sndbay]

Where does Scripture say it is the standard?

And, of what is Scripture the standard?

And if Scripture is the standard, shouldn't we be able to find that statement in Scripture?

1. Scripture was the beginning in which the standard of all is written... because it is the written Word of God..The inspired Word of God.. (John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.)

2. of what is scripture standard: in what we follow

3. standard because it is Truth (John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.)

The foundation in the bread which we remember, and eat as holy in righteousness of truth.

That which we stand upon, and can raise us to eternal life .. The Rock

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

[RickJ]

1. "The Word" does NOT mean "Scripture".
2-3: That is the definition that SOME Christians use, but it is not "of Scripture".

Don't forget that whatever is written in the New Testament about "Scripture" does NOT include anything in the New Testament since that body was not recognized until 300 years after Christ.

[De Maria]

1. Scripture was the beginning in which the standard of all is written... because it is the written Word of God..The inspired Word of God.. (John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.)

The Word of God is a person. Not a book. John 1:1 refers to God the Son, the Word, Expression of God in eternity.

2. of what is scripture standard: in what we follow

It is A standard. Not THE standard. There's a difference.

We have many standards in what we follow.

a. We follow the leaders in our faith:
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

1 Corinthians 4:16
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

b. We follow traditions by word

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

c. And we follow Scripture as you said.

So there is more than one standard for Christians. And all three standards were established by Jesus Christ.

3. standard because it is Truth (John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.)

This is true. But remember that Jesus did not write any Scripture. In fact He established a Church and Tradition. The Church wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old.

The foundation in the bread which we remember, and eat as holy in righteousness of truth.

That which we stand upon, and can raise us to eternal life .. The Rock

Jesus Christ is the Rock. And the Rock appointed another Rock for us, Simon Peter. And neither of those Rocks is Scripture. Jesus Christ is God and man. Whilst Peter is human.

[sndbay]

The Word of God is a person. Not a book. John 1:1 refers to God the Son, the Word, Expression of God in eternity.

The Word is the spiritual truth that was given to us out of love from our Father. We are to confess our belief in that grace, as it is the begotten son of God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

It is A standard. Not THE standard. There's a difference.

We have many standards in what we follow.

a. We follow the leaders in our faith:
Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Lets keep this in the time period which is meant. The teaching was meant for them to remember = (11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that [country] whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. ) And to remember who have spoken unto you of God: who faith follow = (2 Thess 3:6-7 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you)

We today acknowledged that they were ensample unto us to follow them. And we are told to consider the end of conversation because = (Gal 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it)

This was all written in warning, in teaching us how to discern what we are taught and what to follow.

1 Corinthians 4:16
Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

b. We follow traditions by word

Yes as imitators such as written in (11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.)

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

They were ensampled for us today, we are to imiate them for they follow Christ. ( 2 Thess 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you) (2 Thess 3:8 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us. )

c. And we follow Scripture as you said.

So there is more than one standard for Christians. And all three standards were established by Jesus Christ.

There is only one standard for what is written shows us that the ensampled themselves followed Christ

This is true. But remember that Jesus did not write any Scripture. In fact He established a Church and Tradition. The Church wrote the New Testament and canonized the Old.

The Word is by the inspiration of God... I believe in HIS power..It is God who reveals Truth. The church is a followship of Christians that follow Christ. Servants of labor to doing the Will of God.. Bow before God and no other gods. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus Christ is the Rock. And the Rock appointed another Rock for us, Simon Peter. And neither of those Rocks is Scripture. Jesus Christ is God and man. Whilst Peter is human.

I believe in what is written Christ said:
Reference to Peter (John 1:48 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. )

[RickJ]

In short: If Scripture is the standard, then Scripture should tell us that... but it does not. Instead it tells us otherwise.

[JoeT777]

There is only one standard for what is written shows us that the ensampled themselves followed Christ

So far, neither you, Tom, or anybody else has shown where Scriptures hold themselves to be the sole authority in matters of faith. In fact, as De Maria has shown, they allude to the authority being corporate, i.e. “THE CHURCH”.

This is precisely the question here. What is that ‘standard’ and how is it shown to be an authority in the Scriptures? I haven’t found anywhere in Holy Scriptures where Scripture holds itself as the sole rule of life over cosmic revelations made by God; if you have, please share it with us. On the other hand the Catholic Church teaches that its Teaching Authority (the Magisterium) is “right reasoning” in matters of faith.

Instead of answering the proposition, you offer innuendo, unsubstantiated I might add, and then make the statement that there is a ‘standard,’ again unsubstantiated. I fully realize we are treading on your free-to-interpret-Scripture toes, but if you’re in the right, you should be able to give some sort of a reasoned response. After all, if I want people to call the Church names, all I need do is step out on the veranda; there’re scads of folks here that’ll do it for you - with gusto.


JoeT

[sndbay]

So far, neither you, Tom, or anybody else has shown where Scriptures hold themselves to be the sole authority in matters of faith. In fact, as De Maria has shown, they allude to the authority being corporate, i.e. “THE CHURCH”.

JoeT

Joe,

What I am saying is that never should anyone quench the Spirit. (1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit)

The church has authority because they are the body of Christ. Christ is within each member, and each are to walk in Christ. But let us not quench the Spirit. And prove all things, knowing that we hold fast to that which is Truth.


John 1 :14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

[JoeT777]

Joe,

What I am saying is that never should anyone quench the Spirit. (1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit)

If you mean by quench is “to put out or extinguish” I agree. But how do you know whether it is the Holy Spirit? Are we to give credence to private revelations?

The church has authority because they are the body of Christ. Christ is within each member, and each are to walk in Christ. But let us not quench the Spirit. And prove all things, knowing that we hold fast to that which is Truth.
John 1 :14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I agree whole heartedly, except that I don’t think you would agree with me as to which ‘Church.’ So how do we discern which Church is correct and which isn’t?

So then, does the Spirit tell different Churches different absolute Truths, i.e. one Church is as good as another?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

they allude to the authority being corporate, i.e. “THE CHURCH”.

Right. All believers who are in Christ.

On the other hand the Catholic Church teaches that its Teaching Authority (the Magisterium) is “right reasoning” in matters of faith.

But is it? It may have evolved out of the early church of Acts, but has it remained pure? Is any church body pure, holding The Truth, when it is made up of fallible humans?

[JoeT777]

Right. All believers who are in Christ.

Close, but not quite; any two believers who are ONE with Christ makeup the Church. Otherwise, we would have competing Truths – no?

But is it? It may have evolved out of the early church of Acts, but has it remained pure? Is any church body pure, holding The Truth, when it is made up of fallible humans?

In this you're trying to be polite. What's really being said here is that you think the Catholic Church is an apostate Church. But, you do remember Christ's promise that the Church would prevail against the gates of hell. So, then we've got a conundrum, do we not? (I barely know what the word means but I know we've got one). This is digging us deeper into a hole, either Christ didn't tell us the truth or the gates of hell have prevailed in spite of Christ. Or, maybe the Roman Church is correct and you're just trying to find fault where none exists?

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Close, but not quite; any two believers who are ONE with Christ makeup the Church. Otherwise, we would have competing Truths – no?

Why competing? It's Christ's Church on earth. Later, it will be the Church triumphant. I'm not Catholic but am in Christ's Church on earth and destined for the Church triumphant. Other non-Catholic Christians are too. Or don't you think we are?

In this you’re trying to be polite. What’s really being said here is that you think the Catholic Church is an apostate Church.

Not at all. But the Catholic Church is also made up of fallible humans.

the gates of hell have prevailed in spite of Christ.

On this earth, yes, Satan is busy.

maybe the Roman Church is correct and you’re just trying to find fault where none exists?

I don't believe the Catholic Church has the only Truth or The Complete Truth.

[JoeT777]

Why competing? It's Christ's Church on earth. Later, it will be the Church triumphant.

If they’re not competing then they are one and the same Truth. There is already a ‘Church Triumphant’.

On this earth, yes, Satan is busy.

I couldn’t agree with this at all.

I don't believe the Catholic Church has the only Truth or The Complete Truth.

I do believe the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Its Truth rests in Christ.

JoeT

[Wondergirl]

If they’re not competing then they are one and the same Truth. There is already a ‘Church Triumphant’.

We're already dead?

I couldn’t agree with this at all.

Satan isn't hanging about?

I do believe the Catholic Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Its Truth rests in Christ.

I believe the Church is one holy catholic and apostolic Church whose truth rests in Christ.

[JoeT777]

We're already dead?

You’re still marching aren’t you? So I suppose that makes us the Church Militant. Then there’s the Church Suffering – they are in that place you don’t believe in – and the Church Triumphant. All belong to the Kingdom of God. There is only One Church, currently separated by death.

Satan isn't hanging about?

Oh, he’s still here. But, he won’t win out. Don’t we have God’s promise?

I believe the Church is one holy catholic and apostolic Church whose truth rests in Christ.

Amen.

JoeT