[arcura]

JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
I have many loved ones and some friends who have passed this life.
I pray to God for mercy on their souls.
It's the best I can do for them now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!

If we don't pray for the dead then we'll need to assign these verses to obscurity. Onesiphorus is dead, Paul tells us of his prayers for him. Paul asks the Lord to have mercy on Onesiphorus.

The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me and hath not been ashamed of my chain: But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me and found me. The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day. And in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.(2Tim1:16-18)

All very interesting except the part where you claim Onesiphorus is dead. Where did you find that? There is nothing in scripture which even suggests that.

Oops: I forgot to add an Old Testament reference to the practice of praying for the dead. A gift hath grace in the sight of all the living, and restrain not grace from the dead. (Sirach 7:37) The graces referred to here are those profited from alms, prayers, and sacrifices.

Sirach is not in the Old Testament, but if you'd like to push it, I'd be happy to show you contradictions between Sirach and the Bible.

[Tj3]

And then we also find that we are not only permitted to pray for the dead but that it’s a holy thing to do so: It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins. (2 Macc 12:46)

Oh, what a HOLY WAY!

JoeT

You do know that Maccabees denies being an inspired work internally, don't you?

[JoeT777]

JoeT,
Thanks much for that.
I have many loved ones and some friends who have passed this life.
I pray to God for mercy on their souls.
It's the best I can do for them now.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

If we can judge the strength of prayer based on the depth of one’s faith, your friends and relatives were well supported as they passed through the doors of the Church Triumphant.

On another matter, quite some time ago, I became terrified at the thought of all the poor souls that found themselves in purgatory without love ones to pray for them. What terrified me was that by some twist of fate I could just as easily become such a soul. As a result I started saying a simple prayer every night for all such lost souls. Join me. I’m sure those in the Church Suffering will be forever grateful. Think of it as a way of storing up treasures in Heaven.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

You do know that Maccabees denies being an inspired work internally, don't you?

Your handicaps are self inflicted so don't ask me to, as it were tie both hands behind my back.

JoeT

[arcura]

Thanks again, Joe.
Fred

[Tj3]

Your handicaps are self inflicted so don't ask me to, as it were tie both hands behind my back.

I always get a laugh when those who have no way to refute an uncomfortable fact must resort to demeaning personal comments. I take it by your comments that you didn't know that Maccabees denied being inspired.

[arcura]

Look who is laughing at who now.
Is laughing at other Christians the thing to do.
If so please site the passage that says so.
Thanks Fred

[sndbay]

No Paryers for the dead; OH, but WAY!

JoeT

Joe,

Please respectfully don't twist what I have quoted around...

Everything I have quoted is saying the dead can not help us on earth. To pray to the dead is what my quote reference to being No Way...

To pray to saints is what I rebuke, so that sin is not suffered unto anyone.

Of course, someone praying to the Father can ask for what is in the heart of request for their loved ones .


ONCE DEPARTED FROM THE FLESH LOOK AT THE QUOTE:

No where... No way!!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

[JoeT777]

Joe,

Please respectfully don't twist what I have quoted around...

Everything I have quoted is saying the dead can not help us on earth. To pray to the dead is what my quote reference to being No Way...

To pray to saints is what I rebuke, so that sin is not suffered unto anyone.

Of course, someone praying to the Father can ask for what is in the heart of request for their loved ones.


ONCE DEPARTED FROM THE FLESH LOOK AT THE QUOTE:

Originally Posted by sndbay
No where... No way!! That would be to follow man...

Prayer was ensampled to be to The Father.. Christ ensample the way..

( Luke 16:27) confirmed how we on earth have what was fulfilled in scripture by all that was written. And once departed from the flesh we will go to one side of the gulf (or) the other.. . But by no means will you send messages of hope to brothers, nor able to contact them!

The problem is that Luke 16 doesn’t address your topic. Nor does it say “once departed from the flesh.” Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; many such as me believe that this shows the existence of purgatory. We’ll save that however for another day. Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)


JoeT

[Wondergirl]

Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)

Isn't that what Jesus did, "loose" us from our sins? Of course, there has to be faith in that redemption. There is no second chance after this earthly life has ended according to Hebrews 9:27: "And, inasmuch, as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

[Tj3]

Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)

Whether Catholics have believed that since the denomination began in the 4th century is a different question. The question is whether scripture endorses such a position, and using a book which is not canonical and denies inspiration such as Maccabees is not a compelling argument.

We can clearly see that communication with the dead is condemned is scripture, and we find nothing in scripture endorsing it, nor do we see it practiced by men of God in scripture.

[sndbay]

The problem is that Luke 16 doesn't address your topic. Nor does it say “once departed from the flesh.”

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Died = departed from the flesh correct?

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable; many such as me believe that this shows the existence of purgatory.

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This scripture reference, clearly says hell

Purgatory is a man's doctrine, made up and is not written in scripture. (basicly I causion against anything man made )

Catholics have believed, from the time Christ commissioned the Church, that it is a” holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” (2 Macc 12:46)

JoeT

2 Maccabees Chapter 12The Jews are still molested by their neighbours. Judas gains various victories over them. He orders sacrifice and prayers for the dead.

Is this what the Catholic church follows?

**********

I can not accept that men on earth can help or improve anyones fate once they die.. (basicly because we are not Christ, who is the Saviour, and who knows the hearts, and souls of all)

Nor would I believe that praying to the Father concerning anyone's fate, once they die would be wise. (basicly because it shows judgement, and we can't judge someone else's fate even to ask this of our Father)

To pray to the Father in thankfulness to Him, for those individuals who were apart of our lives, and to acknowledge our sorrow in their death seems likely done in the glory of God.

However I do trust we can go to our Father in prayer concerning sorrow which aids in our own comfort. To do so shows our faith in God.

[arcura]

sndbay.
Sorry but I agree with Joe and My Church's teaching on that.
Fred

[JoeT777]

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Died = departed from the flesh correct?
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This scripture reference, clearly says hell

Ok, let's go through Luke 16, starting with the parable of the rich man.

Before Christ died on the cross, the soul went to sheol, or hell. Hell was a place of waiting, a place of limbo, presumed to be a dark place below the earth. No soul went to heaven or what we consider the inferno of hell, the place always referred to in the New Testament as the hell of the damned, Gehenna; the punishment place of the damned. After Christ's Ascension the soul didn't go to the underworld, but rather to heaven (Cf. 2 Cor 5:1)

What is depicted in Luke 16:19 seq. are three souls, Lazarus, the Dives and Abraham. These three are aware of each other, aware of those on earth, and aware of their own condition. Being conscious of their plight and calling for mercy shows the presence of hope, a virtue notably absent in hell. Abraham's bosom was understood by Jewish culture to be a place of rest; not heaven but a place where a spirit could rest. Again, until the Ascension no soul enters heaven. It's with Christ's sacrifice that a new heaven and a new earth are created. On Christ's death, a New Kingdom is created; its occupants are the Church Militant, those baptized on earth; Church suffering, those suffering in purgatory; and the Church Triumphant, those residing in heaven.

Furthermore, the Dives petitions (“prays to”) another soul in purgatory to have mercy; “send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.” The purging flames of fire create a great thrust for God's graces. The rich man pray's “send him [Lazarus] to my father's house” to testify. This is the dead 'praying' for his love ones left behind. To suggest that it was possible to send Moses and the prophets for the benefit of the living also supports the idea of the communication of the living with the Saints. Would Christ have used a parable that theologically flawed if such communication were prohibited?

Purgatory is a man's doctrine, made up and is not written in scripture. (basically I caution against anything man made )

I would caution also. Ignoring Sacred and Holy Tradition is to deny the fullness of faith found in the Church.

2 Maccabees Chapter 12The Jews are still molested by their neighbours. Judas gains various victories over them. He orders sacrifice and prayers for the dead.

Is this what the Catholic church follows?

**********

The Catholic Church follows Holy Tradition and Scripture, as taught by the Magisterium. If you mean does this include the Book of Maccabees; then yes.

I can not accept that men on earth can help or improve anyones fate once they die.. (basicly because we are not Christ, who is the Saviour, and who knows the hearts, and souls of all)

Nor would I believe that praying to the Father concerning anyone's fate, once they die would be wise. (basicly because it shows judgement, and we can't judge someone else's fate even to ask this of our Father)

That's too bad. You'd make a great Catholic.

To pray to the Father in thankfulness to Him, for those individuals who were apart of our lives, and to acknowledge our sorrow in their death seems likely done in the glory of God.

But, wouldn't it be more comforting to know that mom, dad, uncle, brother, etc. are in heaven adding to our petitions for God's mercy on our souls. Wouldn't it help comfort poor lost souls to know that we are petitioning God to be merciful to them? Do you just hate poor lost souls so much that you wouldn't pray for them? Would you dam all who don't “walk the isle” to say the formula of 'once saved always saved'?

However I do trust we can go to our Father in prayer concerning sorrow which aids in our own comfort. To do so shows our faith in God.

I pray to Saint Michael:

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle; be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray: and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

JoeT

[JoeT777]

Isn't that what Jesus did, "loose" us from our sins? Of course, there has to be faith in that redemption. There is no second chance after this earthly life has ended according to Hebrews 9:27: "And, inasmuch, as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

Who said purgatory = 2nd chance?

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
There ARE several passages in the Holy Bible that indicate the existence of Purgatory.
They are as follows...
Lk 12:59; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7; Mt 5:25-26... temporary agony.
Heb 12:6-11... God's painful discipline.
Mt 12:32... no forgiveness... nor in the age to come.
1 Pet 3:19... purgatory (limbo?).
Rev 21:27... nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
Heb 12:23... souls in heaven are perfect.
Col 1:24; 2 Sam 12:14... "extra" suffering.
2 Mac 12:43-46... sacrifice for the dead.
2 Tim 1:15-18... prayer for Onesiphorus for "that Day."
1 Jn 5:14-17... mortal/venial sins.
If you haven't does so yet, make a note of them.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Who said purgatory = 2nd chance?

Then what would be its purpose?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
The purpose of Purgatory is in its name.
Though out sins may be forgiven we still have a sinful nature to sin again.
It is the place where our sinful nature is purged.
Folks there leave purified so they can enter heaven.
You might think of it as a stage stop on the way to the heavenly kindom.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Then what would be its purpose?

To purge sin.