[arcura]

Fr_Chuck,
Excellent point.
Well made.
I go by what Scripture says by they interpret it to fit what they want it to say.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

Fred,

When I have your word versus what scripture says, I am afraid I have to go with what scripture says, which places Jesus as the one at the head of the church, and Jesus as the one with the keys.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

[Tj3]

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

What were these keys? We see that the Pharisees had the keys:

Luke 11:52
52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter in yourselves, and those who were entering in you hindered."
NKJV

The keys were knowledge, but what knowledge would bind people and what knowledge was it that the Pharisees did not use to loose themselves by entering in? It was the key of the truth and specifically the truth of the gospel. The Pharisees were the priests who had the key of truth by which they could guide the people into salvation, and instead of losing the keys to open the door, they bound the key, took it away from the people and bound themselves by not using it.

We see here in Matthew 16:

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Jesus gave the keys to the disciples. We see in Matthew 16:13 that he was speaking to the disciples:

Matt 16:13
13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
NKJV

The gospel was not given just to one man, but to the disciples to use to take into the word to bring salvation to the people. Note that even the Pharisees were not given the keys, but Luke 11:52 says that they took the keys. Who from? It was from the people of Israel. The keys were never intended to be in the hands of only some people or one person, but Jesus took the keys from the Pharisees and gave them to the disciples, people who had already entered into their salvation and who knew that to use the keys, they had to give them to the people, that they too might enter. If they use the keys, people will no longer be bound and can enter and be saved. It is the keys of knowledge that loose men to be free in Christ and be no longer bound by sin.

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
Right you are.
The keys were the keys to heaven just as Scripture says.
In olden days of like of King david the keys to the treasury were given to the prime minister.
When Jesus gave the keys to heaven to Peter that made him Christ's prime minister on earth.
Don't let anyone tell you different.
If you do you will be mislead.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Wondergirl]

And what does the "bind" and "loose" mean, arcura?

[Tj3]

wondergirl,
Right you are.
The keys were the keys to heaven just as Scripture says.
In olden days of like of King david the keys to the treasury were given to the prime minister.
When Jesus gave the keys to heaven to Peter that made him Christ's prime minister on earth.

Except scripture does not say that.

BTW, Jesus is holding the Keys in Revelation.

Rev 1:18-19
18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.
NKJV

[JoeT777]

The Imposition of the Hands of the Priesthood

The primary role, the very essence of priesthood is to perform sacrifice. A sacrifice we are invited to partake, the sacrifice rejected by non-Catholics. Aaron chose the tribe of Levi act not as priests but as servants or assistants to priest. In a ceremony at almost the same time Aaron was anointed high-priest. (Cf. Exodus 29:1-37; 40:12 sqq.; Leviticus 8:1-36). In David's Tabernacle tradition there were four classes of Levites; servants of the priests, officials and judges, porters, and finally musicians and singers (1 Chronicles 23:3 sqq.). After the Babylonian exile the Levite priesthood died out. A new priesthood was established for the Herod's tradition of the Temple. Priests did the washing, cleaning of the temple, renewal of the proposition loaves, filling the oil-lamps and the menorah. Priests in the Herod's tradition offered the sacrifices each day. In 70 A.D. the sacrificial service performed by the priesthood ceased. What grew from this was a rabbinic system where rabbis no longer performed priestly sacrifices, but rather merely became teachers of the law.

In the Catholic teaching priests enjoy the fullness of ordination, primi ordinis. Deacon is an attendant to the priest with no priestly powers. This was foreshadowed by Melchisedech (cf. Genesis 14:18 sqq.) who offered bread and wine. The priesthood of Melchisedech was a prophetic reference to the Last Supper and the Mass where the bread and wine are sacrificed, changed into the 'real presence' of Christ.

The main testimony of the New Testament lies in the account of the institution of the Eucharist, and most clearly in the words of consecration spoken over the chalice. This takes place in the consecration of the bread and wine which too is Scripturally formulated.

Matthew 26:28: Touto gar estin to aima mou to tes [kaines] diathekes to peri pollon ekchynnomenon eis aphesin amartion. For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Mark 14:24: Touto estin to aima mou tes kaines diathekes to yper pollon ekchynnomenon. This is my blood of the new testament which shall be shed for many.

Luke 22:20: Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke en to aimati mou, to yper ymon ekchynnomenon. This is the chalice, the new testament in my blood, which shall be shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:25: Touto to poterion he kaine diatheke estin en to emo aimati. This chalice is the new testament in my blood.

The Council of Trent makes it clear that without priest the Church of Christ (Roman Catholic Church) wouldn't exist. "If any one shall say that in the New Testament there is no visible and external priesthood nor any power of consecrating and offering the Body and Blood of the Lord, as well as of remitting and retaining sins, but merely the office and bare ministry of preaching the Gospel, let him be anathema." The reason shold be obvious, it is the priest who offers the sacrifice, without the ordained priest we are without the Holy Eucharist, and without the Eucharist there is no Church. Christianity becomes story tellers with no Real Presence of Chirst. “Be you also as living stones built up, a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 2:5)

The evidence is clear that the early Roman Catholic Church ordained priests taught by the original Twelve and their successors , “Then they fasting and praying and imposing their hands upon them, sent them away.” ( Acts 13:3) St. Luke's description of the ordination was simple, “And when they had ordained to them priests in every church and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, in whom they believed.” ( Acts 14:22) And Paul tells Timothy not to “Neglect not the grace that is in thee [the authority to ordain priests], which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood.” (1 Tim 4:14) A special order of the simple presbyterii requiring the laying on of hands. A special authority, not taken on lightly, rather fulfillment of prophecy. And further, Paul advises not to “Impose not hands lightly upon any man, neither be partaker of other men's sins. Keep thyself chaste.” (1 Tim 5:22) And again, “For which cause I admonish thee that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee by the imposition of my hands” (2 Timothy 1:6)

Consequently, not only is Peter leader of our Church, leader of all Christianity, but it's though his authority that we are graced with this special order of presbyterii.

Deo Grátias; Thnaks be to God.


JoeT

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
In that Scripture bind is to be bound, that is tied or fastened.
Loose, however, is the opposite of that.
Compare that to not forgiven (bind) and forgiven (loose).
I went to confession Saturday eve just before Mass.
In the name of Jesus Christ my sins were loosed (forgiven).
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[JoeT777]

Lost Keys?

Talk about losing the key to understanding. “Woe to you lawyers, for you have taken away the key of knowledge,” hardly equates to “the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven".

JoeT

[arcura]

Joe,
Thanks for that very good post on the priesthood.
I was looking for references to that and you put it all together for me and others here.
On a side note about priests or Bishop informed us that 130 new Catholic converts will be brought into the Church here in this area of Montana on Easter with a grand slam of graces, baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Holy Ercharist.
This year there are serveral thousand of adults alone, nation wide, going to go through the same thing.
The Church is growing well with new adult converts.
The Coming Home Network (founded by a Catholic convert) is a great help in that field.
The Coming Home Network International
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

Joe,

I understand your denominational teaching, but no matter how long you make your post, the fact remains scripture neither supports the contention that Peter was head of either the Church or any denomination, and scripture does not support the contention that there was any office of priest in the Church. The word is simply not used anywhere ibn the NT is that context.

[Tj3]

Lost Keys?

Talk about losing the key to understanding. “Woe to you lawyers, for you have taken away the key of knowledge,” hardly equates to “the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven".

JoeT

So how does one get into the Kingdom, Joe, if one does not have knowledge of the gospel? Do you know of a different way to be saved?

[Wondergirl]

So how does one get into the Kingdom, Joe, if one does not have knowledge of the gospel? Do you know of a different way to be saved?

That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

[Tj3]

That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

Really? And what exactly do you think that the Kingdom of heaven is?

[Wondergirl]

Really? And what exactly do you think that the Kingdom of heaven is?

That's not the question.

From Luther's Small Catechism --

The use of the Keys is that special power and right which Christ gave to his church on earth, to forgive the sins of penitent sinners but to refuse forgiveness to the impenitent as long as they do not repent.

Where is this written?

The holy Evangelist John writes in chapter 20, "Jesus breathed on his disciples and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

How does a Christian congregation use the Keys?
A Christian congregation with its called servant of Christ uses the Keys in accordance with Christ's command by forgiving those who repent of their sin and are willing to amend, and by excluding from the congregation those who are plainly impenitent that they may repent. I believe that, when this is done, it is as valid and certain in heaven also, as if Christ, our dear Lord, dealt with us himself.

Where is this written?

Jesus says in Matthew, chapter 1, "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

[Tj3]

That's not the question.

But it is.

I am not Lutheran so I will go by what scripture says, not your denominational theology.

The keys of Kingdom of heaven is what the verse refers to.

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Please answer the question - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

[arcura]

Wondergirl,
You are right again.
The Scripture is clerar that the keys to heaven are in relation to the forgiveness or not forgiveness of sins.
Any other interpretation of that is in error.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

The Scripture is clerar that the keys to heaven are in relation to the forgiveness or not forgiveness of sins.

I am glad to see that you agree with me that the keys refer to salvation.

Wondergirl said:

That's not the correct question to ask, Tom. The keys that Jesus gave to his disciples had nothing to do with being saved or not.

I added the red colour to the lettering to show where she said that the keys had nothing to do with salvation.

Though she is right that the keys were given to the disciples and not just Peter.

[Wondergirl]

But it is.

I am not Lutheran so I will go by what scripture says, not your denominational theology.

The keys of Kingdom of heaven is what the verse refers to.

Matt 16:19-20
19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
NKJV

Please answer the question - what do you think that the kingdom of heaven is?

It's keys to the kingdom of heaven. On Pentecost, Peter first opened the doors and declared the conditions of which men could have their sins forgiven, be bound or loosed, and thus enter into the Church on earth. Seven years later at Caesarea he declared the same conditions to the Gentiles. While Peter took the lead, the keys were given to all the apostles.

Jesus Himself, and only He, has given us the kingdom of heaven with His sacrifice on the cross. The apostles merely unlocked or locked the door into the kingdom.

The apostles are no longer with us. Who has the keys now?

[JoeT777]

Joe,
Thanks for that very good post on the priesthood.
I was looking for references to that and you put it all together for me and others here.
On a side note about priests or Bishop informed us that 130 new Catholic converts will be brought into the Church here in this area of Montana on Easter with a grand slam of graces, baptism, confession, confirmation, and the Holy Ercharist.
This year there are serveral thousand of adults alone, nation wide, going to go through the same thing.
The Church is growing well with new adult converts.
The Coming Home Network (founded by a Catholic convert) is a great help in that field.
The Coming Home Network International
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks, I value your comments.

Catechumens who are fortunate enough to schedule their first communion during Easter are especially graced. Unlike some of our non-Catholic friends, we cannot simply say ‘I’m Catholic’ and suddenly become dubbed with graces of being Catholic. It takes a little schooling. Catechumens learn that our faith is observance of the Divine law, as Christ said, “all things whatever I have commanded you", Matthew 28:20 . As I’ve been told, this is a lot for ‘bible only’ Christians to ingest since its counter to their traditions; i.e. viewing it as surrendering their right to interpret Scripture. Consequently, when asked, I try always to give a safe answer without being argumentative – and you know that’s hard for me. (My wife says I’d argue the bark off a telephone pole). Us born Catholics tend to get hung up on norms and traditions which can be misunderstood by the convert. Catechumens, or for that matter anybody, shouldn’t come to view us as “Italian Catholics” always arguing with “Irish Catholics” over which tradition is best. But, of course we all know the Italian traditions are far superior; not that I’m bias in any way – well at least the spaghetti is superior.

Yes, I once followed Marcus Grodi quite a bit. And whenever I can get EWTN on the television I like to watch his program. But, the down side, he plays strictly to the protestant converts. There are times when my interests drift to other topics of our faith. I used to have his book ‘Pope Fiction’. (At least I think it was Grodi’s).

JoeT