[Akoue]

I think we are one with God, now. We are temples of the Holy Spirit.

Right, but our oneness with God hasn't been perfected yet. The work of redemption set in motion with the Incarnation has an historical trajectory. So, to return to something Joe has rightly emphasized, we are adopted children of God awaiting a still more perfect, more intimate, sonship that is to come with the end of salvation history.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
That is just your opinion as far as I am concerned.
Fred

That is fine. I recognize what you say to be just your opinion.

[Akoue]

Sorry to swamp you guys with all those questions. I was trying to catch up and the responses are so interesting, I didn't want to miss any.

Have we moved any closer to answering the question of the OP?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly feel I am gaining a deeper understanding of the OP as a result of our conversation. There seems to be very good reason to say that Christ redeems the whole of creation and not just human beings.

That said, I am still mulling over something else Joe said, viz. that creation didn't fall and so doesn't need redemption. You have made a case that sin disrupted creation, and I think I have also endorsed something like this, but I don't think it's a slam-dunk yet.

At least, this is more or less where I am at the moment. I look forward to hearing your take on where we are with respect to the OP.

[arcura]

For those who wonder.
I do not know how to rate a post pr answer.
I see nothing that provides the ability to do that.
Fred

[De Maria]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly feel I am gaining a deeper understanding of the OP as a result of our conversation. There seems to be very good reason to say that Christ redeems the whole of creation and not just human beings.

That said, I am still mulling over something else Joe said, viz. that creation didn't fall and so doesn't need redemption. You have made a case that sin disrupted creation, and I think I have also endorsed something like this, but I don't think it's a slam-dunk yet.

At least, this is more or less where I am at the moment. I look forward to hearing your take on where we are with respect to the OP.

I feel as though I've learned quite a bit.

I'm wondering whether we need to define "redemption". What does it mean as it pertains to man and to creation?

And I'm wondering about the fact that God made man sovereign of this world. Did, in the fall of man, man take creation with him out of paradise?

Therefore, even though creation did not sin, when man is redeemed, creation is redeemed with him.

Just a question offered in hopes of reconciling with Joe's hypothesis.

[De Maria]

....

And I note that you failed to respond to the question regarding the CCC which states specifically that men become gods and men become God. Avoiding the question in fact answers it nicely.

And you failed to respond to the Scripture which says the same.

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

[Tj3]

And you failed to respond to the Scripture which says the same.

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Let's look at it in context. I don't think anyone would or should want to be the "gods" that Jesus refers to here. First, what does Jesus say about the men that he is calling "gods" in this passage:

John 10:25-27
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
NKJV

So these are men who oppose Jesus, and who oppose God. They are non-believers.

Jesus refers to the Old Testament as the source for his comment, and there is only one place in the Old Testament where this is said and that is Psalm 82. Let's look at it in context.

Ps 82
God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
NKJV

The word used there in Hebrew is a word that can be used to mean "gods" or "judges", referring to those who are mighty or in positions of leadership. God does not die. These "gods" do. These people are referred to as judging issues before a court, and therefore are in fact evil judges, but the context of John 10:34 shows that these men thought themselves to be gods, and they were falsely judging Jesus. There is no other way to take it in context. Jesus was clearly condemning them and Psalm 82 clearly condemns them.

Look at the characteristics of these "gods" from John 10 and Psalm 82:

- They do not believe in God.
- They rejected Jesus as Saviour
- They show partiality to the wicked
- They judge unjustly
- They do not know
- They do not understand
- They walk about in darkness
- They die like men
- Fall like the princes

Also note that there are no other Gods, according to God.

Ex 23:13
13 And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.
NKJV

Isa 44:8
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

Isa 45:5
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
NKJV

Isa 45:14
They will make supplication to you, saying, 'Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

Isa 45:18
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other.
NKJV

Isa 45:21-22
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

22 "Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
NKJV

So the Bible is explicit in saying that there are no other gods, and that those who claim to be gods in scripture are those who Jesus was condemning.

2 Peter 1:4
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

This refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit spoken of elsewhere in scripture. This is not saying that our nature changes to that of God.

[De Maria]

Let's look at it in context. I don't think anyone would or should want to be the "gods" that Jesus refers to here. First, what does Jesus say about the men that he is calling "gods" in this passage:

Jesus is not calling those men gods. Jesus is calling all men gods to whom the word of God came. Read the Scripture:

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

John 10:25-27
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
NKJV

These are men with whom Jesus is arguing. Jesus doesn't say, YOU ARE GODS.

So these are men who oppose Jesus, and who oppose God. They are non-believers.

Besides the point. Jesus didn't call them gods. You have twisted the Scripture to your own end.

Jesus refers to the Old Testament as the source for his comment, and there is only one place in the Old Testament where this is said and that is Psalm 82. Let's look at it in context.

Ps 82
God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods.
2 How long will you judge unjustly,
And show partiality to the wicked?
Selah
3 Defend the poor and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy;
Free them from the hand of the wicked.

5 They do not know, nor do they understand;
They walk about in darkness;
All the foundations of the earth are unstable.

6 I said, "You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes."

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth;
For You shall inherit all nations.
NKJV

The word used there in Hebrew is a word that can be used to mean "gods" or "judges", referring to those who are mighty or in positions of leadership. God does not die. These "gods" do. These people are referred to as judging issues before a court, and therefore are in fact evil judges, but the context of John 10:34 shows that these men thought themselves to be gods, and they were falsely judging Jesus. There is no other way to take it in context. Jesus was clearly condemning them and Psalm 82 clearly condemns them.

No, Jesus was arguing with the men who denied His Divinity. Therefore, He said, why do you doubt, if Scripture says that those who receive His word are gods?

Those who receive His word are men like Moses:
Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

And the rulers of Israel:
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

These are they who received the word of God and are called gods.

Look at the characteristics of these "gods" from John 10 and Psalm 82:

- They do not believe in God.
- They rejected Jesus as Saviour
- They show partiality to the wicked
- They judge unjustly
- They do not know
- They do not understand
- They walk about in darkness
- They die like men
- Fall like the princes

Also note that there are no other Gods, according to God.

Your eseigesis makes no sense. Lets read the actual text.

34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jesus said that it is written in Scripture.

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

That those who have received the word of God are gods.

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus is therefore astounded, that if the Prophets themselves are called gods, they should consider Him a blasphemer because he said that he is the Son of God.

Now, if Jesus were comparing himself to sinners and unbelievers, your eseigesis. But Jesus is comparing Himself to just men who have received the word of God and thereby have a claim to Divintiy.

Ex 23:13
13 And in all that I have said to you, be circumspect and make no mention of the name of other gods, nor let it be heard from your mouth.NKJV

God is here speaking of the gods of other nations.

Isa 44:8
You are My witnesses.
Is there a God besides Me?
Indeed there is no other Rock;
I know not one.'"
NKJV

Yet God has called Abraham the Rock from whom we are hewn.

Isa 45:5
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
There is no God besides Me.
NKJV

No there isn't. But as we have seen, God appointed Moses god of pharoa and Jesus appointed Simon the Rock of the Church.

Isa 45:14
They will make supplication to you, saying, 'Surely God is in you,
And there is no other;
There is no other God.'"
NKJV

Agreed. There is no other God with a capital G. But God has named them gods who have received His word. And the Scripture can't be broken.

Isa 45:18
18 For thus says the LORD,
Who created the heavens,
Who is God,
Who formed the earth and made it,
Who has established it,
Who did not create it in vain,
Who formed it to be inhabited:
"I am the LORD, and there is no other.
NKJV

Isa 45:21-22
And there is no other God besides Me,
A just God and a Savior;
There is none besides Me.

22 "Look to Me, and be saved,
All you ends of the earth!
For I am God, and there is no other.
NKJV

So the Bible is explicit in saying that there are no other gods, and that those who claim to be gods in scripture are those who Jesus was condemning.

Nope. The Scripture is clear that those who receive God's word are considered gods, with a small g and the Scripture can't be broken. Jesus was not comparing Himself to sinners. Otherwise His comments would not make sense.

This refers to the indwelling of the Holy Spirit spoken of elsewhere in scripture. This is not saying that our nature changes to that of God.

Neither did we say that we became God. That is how you have twisted the Catholic teaching and attempted to twist our understanding of the Scripture.

[Tj3]

Jesus is not calling those men gods. Jesus is calling all men gods to whom the word of God came. Read the Scripture:

John 10:35
If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Jesus referred to the OT and this is the one and only place in the entire OT where men are called gods. BTW, to whom did the word of God come? To the Jews. These men were Jews.

Read what scripture says:

John 10:31-35
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
NKJV

Those who receive His word are men like Moses:
Exodus 7:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

And the rulers of Israel:
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods, nor curse the ruler of thy people.

These are they who received the word of God and are called gods.

Ex 7:1
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV

Moses was not made into a God. once again, the context is so important, as is ensuring that you are areading a translation in modern language unless you are perfectly fluent in old English.

Ex 22:28
28 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
NKJV

Jesus is therefore astounded, that if the Prophets themselves are called gods, they should consider Him a blasphemer because he said that he is the Son of God.

Wow - where did you get that the prophets are called gods? Show me that in scripture. That is quite a creative interpretation that you have.

Agreed. There is no other God with a capital G.

The original text was not capitalized.

Neither did we say that we became God.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does.

[De Maria]

Jesus referred to the OT and this is the one and only place in the entire OT where men are called gods. BTW, to whom did the word of God come? To the Jews. These men were Jews.

I showed you another verse where men are called gods.

Read what scripture says:

John 10:31-35
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" 33 The Jews answered Him, saying, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God." 34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, "You are gods" '?
NKJV

Jesus is not calling them GOD.

As I said before:
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jesus said that it is written in Scripture.

35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

That those who have received the word of God are gods.

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Jesus is therefore astounded, that if the Prophets themselves are called gods, they should consider Him a blasphemer because he said that he is the Son of God.

Now, if Jesus were comparing himself to sinners and unbelievers, your eseigesis. But Jesus is comparing Himself to just men who have received the word of God and thereby have a claim to Divintiy.

Ex 7:1
7:1 So the LORD said to Moses: "See, I have made you as God to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet.
NKJV

Moses was not made into a God. Once again, the context is so important, as is ensuring that you are areading a translation in modern language unless you are perfectly fluent in old English.

Did I say that Moses was made into God? Scripture says so and the Scripture can't be broken.

Ex 22:28
28 "You shall not revile God, nor curse a ruler of your people.
NKJV

Wow - where did you get that the prophets are called gods? Show me that in scripture. That is quite a creative interpretation that you have.

You yourself admit that the Jews received the word of God. The prophets are Jews, are they not. And who amongst the Jews received the word of God from God?

Put two and two together.

The original text was not capitalized.

No, it wasn't. Why did you capitalize it?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does.

Just as the Scriptures do.

[arcura]

De Maria,
Excellent, but I fear that Jj3 will never accept what you and the bible teaches about gods who accept and believe in Jesus because it is to Catholic for him to accept.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[Tj3]

De Maria,
Excellent, but I fear that Jj3 will never accept what you and the bible teaches about gods who accept and believe in Jesus because it is to Catholic for him to accept.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

You are partly right. I will never accept what De Maria teaches when it goes against scripture. I accept only what the God's word teaches.

[Tj3]

I showed you another verse where men are called gods.

But you have not shown me any place when God endorses men as gods. It is always a condemnation.

Jesus is not calling them GOD.

Right. Because men are not gods or God.

Did I say that Moses was made into God? Scripture says so and the Scripture can't be broken.

Scripture does not say it - only you did.

You yourself admit that the Jews received the word of God.

You do a really lousy job of speaking for me. Give it up. Jesus IS the Word of God in the flesh.

The prophets are Jews, are they not. And who amongst the Jews received the word of God from God?

Put two and two together.

And what is your claim?

No, it wasn't. Why did you capitalize it?

Capitalization was your argument not mine.

Just as the Scriptures do.

Really? Where do scripture says that man becomes God?

[JoeT777]

John 10:34 and 35: Christ is calling the Jews Gods should also be referenced to Deu 1:17 and also reference Ex 21:6. The reference does come from Ps 82:6 but it's a term used for 'judges' because they exercised divine prerogative to judge. Referenced - “The New American Bible” (foot notes).

The verses here implies that the Jews do not recognize God in spite of the works exhibited by Christ. And an out and out declaration by Christ: I am God.

JoeT

[arcura]

Tj3,
How men become gods (little g) is well explained in the CCC and has been done so by De Marian and others, including me on other boards, but you continue to bring it up.
You should know by now that you can not win the argument, so I must assume that you just want to continue to argue.
Actually I have enjoyed watching the argument continue and learning more in the process of what Scripture and Jesus says about men becoming gods
You have brought more learning from others who know the subject well for me so I thank you.
Fred

[Tj3]

John 10:34 and 35: Christ is calling the Jews Gods should also be referenced to Deu 1:17 and also reference Ex 21:6.

Neither of which says what Jesus said - "you are gods". That is Psalm 82.

The reference does come from Ps 82:6 but it's a term used for 'judges' because they exercised divine prerogative to judge. Referenced - “The New American Bible” (foot notes).

So nowhere in scripture does it endorse the belief that men become god or god.

[Tj3]

Tj3,
How men become gods (little g) is well explained in the CCC and has been done so by De Marian and others, including me on other boards, but you continue to bring it up.

It may be taught in the CCC, but not in the Bible. That is the point.

You should know by now that you can not win the argument,

Fred,

I keep hoping that you and De Maria will some day seriously discuss the topic, but I do recognize, as you suggest, that to date that has not happened and does not seem likely. But I never give up hope.

[Akoue]

Tj3,

I haven't yet seen your answer to the OP. Did Christ die to redeem creation or just man? Do you care to participate in the conversation that was going along quite affably prior to your entrance, or are you just grinding axes yet again?

[Tj3]

Tj3,

I haven't yet seen your answer to the OP. Did Christ die to redeem creation or just man? Do you care to participate in the conversation that was going along quite affably prior to your entrance, or are you just grinding axes yet again?

Do you plan to just make snide remarks or discuss?

[Akoue]

Do you plan to just make snide remarks or discuss?

The OP, Tom. Why don't you try addressing the OP.